Russian problem (what else)

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jumichlo
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Russian problem (what else)

Postby jumichlo » 2004-07-07, 23:53

I have a little problem with Russian (o.k., o.k. – there are more major problems, but forget about it now). 8)

For example I say “Я позвоню моему отцу“ (Ehm, I hope at least this small sentence is right).

With the word “отец“ I have to use this „reduction“ or how it’s called.
So, how I would write “отец“ in the 6 cases of Russian?
Отец
Отца
Отцу
Отца
Отцом
Отце
???
:?

And what other cases I have to use this "reduction"?

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Axystos
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Postby Axystos » 2004-07-08, 6:21

I'm sure a native russian will correct me, but if I remember correctly from my grammar books, отец is declined exactly how you wrote it. All cases, except of course first person singular, have this "reduction". Btw, in my grammar book this reduction phenomenon is described as отец having a 'fleeting vowel'.

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Re: Russian problem (what else)

Postby Lada » 2004-07-08, 8:27

jumichlo wrote:
For example I say “Я позвоню моему отцу“ (Ehm, I hope at least this small sentence is right).

угу :)
With the word “отец“ I have to use this „reduction“ or how it’s called.

in russian terminology it is called - беглая гласная

dont forget that there s still vocative case for отец - отче, but it is used only in church, or in high poetical style

And what other cases I have to use this "reduction"?

some words which came to my mind:
Nom.Заяц, ловец, писец, день, сон, ров, рот, делец, лев
Gen.зайца, ловца, писца, дня, сна, рва, рта, дельца, льва
So, as it seems to me that all musculin nouns who have at the end Е(Я)Ц should be declined in such way, about all others there s no rule, at least i couldnt find it...some geographical names of slavic origin are also included in this rule:
Плевен - Плевна (bulgarian town)
but we have only 2 беглых гласных - Е и О(i hope this will help anyhow :wink: ), they also can appear sometimes, but only in the words of feminin gender:
-башня - башен
-девушка - девушек

I think the whole list of such irregular words is possible to find in books "difficulties of russian grammar" - i saw such in moscow shops, so i think it s possbily to buy such ones through the net.

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Postby geoff » 2004-07-08, 10:50

Would somebody like to write a page about this in the Wiki? Lada has already done a good job of explaining.

geoff

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PM: Nukkuminenkin on ihanaa.

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Postby jumichlo » 2004-07-08, 15:21

Thank you very much Lada. :)
Certainly I have another question:
How to handle the word "ребёнок"?
is it:
ребёнка, ребёнку, ребёнка, ребёнком, ребёнке ??
I often have to use it but I'm always confused in the stress while speaking. :?

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Postby Lada » 2004-07-09, 11:59

jumichlo wrote:How to handle the word "ребёнок"?
is it:
ребёнка, ребёнку, ребёнка, ребёнком, ребёнке ??
I often have to use it but I'm always confused in the stress while speaking. :?

dont you know such a very useful rule about the stress? :wink:

letter Ё wherever it is, it is always under the stress :)

and declension is right...by the way i have just realised that other nouns with suffixes е(ё)нок-онок are also declined in such way:
медвежонок, цыплёнок, ягнёнок и т.д. I ve never noticed this before :shock:

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Postby Giraffa » 2004-07-09, 21:29

It seems to me there is no way to identify the fleeting vowels when they are in the root. :(
You can be sure with them only in the suffixes Lada has given already...

I can only add that fleeting o replaces the old reduced sound which was indicated by the letter ъ, and the fleeting e - the reduced sound shown by ь centuries ago. When they were in a strong position they became full spoken vowels o and e. And if they were in a weak position they disappeared. The phonetic process took place in the 11th century... And we can't differentiate btw them now...
:oops:
I'll try to check it, but...

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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-07-08, 10:34

Another note:

Words ending on "-енок", "-ёнок" and "-онок" always have the ending "-ата" or "-ята" in the plural. This applies mostly to diminutive forms of animals, e. g. котёнок => котята. So these words form an own declension system you hardly see in any grammar resource.

There is one form which refers to humans: "ребёнок", though be careful that there had been a change in the meaning: "ребята" is not the plural of "ребёнок" anymore but a colloquial salutation amongst adolescents.


I've forgot something which is important to know!

- котята (им. п. / мн. ч.)
- котят (род. п. / мн. ч.) <= no ending, like female and neuter nouns.
Last edited by Nukalurk on 2006-07-09, 16:10, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-07-08, 10:47

Lada wrote:медвежонок, цыплёнок, ягнёнок и т.д. I ve never noticed this before :shock:


I think that "-ок"-endings always lose their "о", e. g. "предок" (им. п. / ед. ч.) => "предка" (род. п. / ед. ч.) / "предки" (им. п. / мн. ч.), if the "-ок"-ending is unstressed.

"урок" (им. п. / ед. ч.) => "урока" (род. п. / ед. ч.) / "уроки" (им. п. / мн. ч.) - there it is kept.

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Postby maxcrylov » 2006-07-08, 12:17

Another case not mentioned here (if I was attentive enough to read) is one with diminishing suffix "-ек".

звоночек - звоночка
зверёк - зверька (what an awful word to try a genitive... only noticed that)
сыночек - сыночка

This suffix mustn't be confused with another one with the same meaning - "-ик". As Lada has already said, "и" is not a fleeting vowel. Therefore it remains in the suffix in all forms.

ключик - ключика
зайчик - зайчика (hey, i know there's a phonem "й" in the root, but where goes this stressless "а" from "[зайац]? another case of fleeting vowel?)
мячик - мячика

I start respecting people learning Russian more and more...
If you really want to hear about it...

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Postby maxcrylov » 2006-07-08, 12:28

I think that "-ок"-endings always lose their "о", e. g. "предок" (им. п. / ед. ч.) => "предка" (род. п. / ед. ч.) / "предки" (им. п. / мн. ч.), if the "-ок"-ending is unstressed.

"урок" (им. п. / ед. ч.) => "урока" (род. п. / ед. ч.) / "уроки" (им. п. / мн. ч.) - there it is kept.


Well, at first glance your idea is allright, but there's a word "сурок" where "о" is stressed. However:

сурок - сурка - сурку - сурка - сурком - сурке

Actually I can't explain it without going into depths of historical phonetics. From the morphological point of view it's dark, 'cause in both "урок" and "сурок" "о" is a part of the root, while in "предок" and, say, "сынок" it is a suffix (I do believe that the root of "предок" is "пред", because it means "человек, который был перед ("пред") нами, то есть раньше"; at least historically it was so, the morphem is still productive - therefore it is "пред").

We see a fleeting vowel in both stressed and unstressed positions, root and suffix...

My god...
If you really want to hear about it...



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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-07-08, 12:37

maxcrylov wrote:зайчик - зайчика (hey, i know there's a phonem "й" in the root, but where goes this stressless "а" from "[зайац]? another case of fleeting vowel?)


The stress of "зайчик" is on the "а". "заяц", too, if you had meant that one. Or did you only want to mark the ending? I just notice that this seems to be more likely because the others are similar. :?:

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Postby Nukalurk » 2006-07-08, 12:52

maxcrylov wrote:Well, at first glance your idea is allright, but there's a word "сурок" where "о" is stressed. However:

сурок - сурка - сурку - сурка - сурком - сурке


Right, I've forgotten cases like that and "мешок" and such but only because they form an own declination paradigm.

именительный падеж: мешок / мешки
родительный падеж: мешка / мешков
дательный падеж: мешку / мешкам
винительный падеж: мешок / мешки
творительный падеж: мешком / мешками
предложный падеж: мешке / мешках


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