Brazilian and Portuguese...

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kossuth

Brazilian and Portuguese...

Postby kossuth » 2003-01-25, 5:14

I would be grateful if someone made clear this issue to me, which has troubled me for a while (not that I can´t sleep, but...)
How different are the Portuguese spoken in Brazil and in Portugal ???

Well, this came up to me on hearing a press conference by Luis Figo, (for the few who don´t know him: a football player and a Portuguese too). I did not understand a single word he said. Yep.

And also, another doubt, though this one does trouble me (I am moving to Sao Paulo in 3 weeks time): how many dialects can one find in Brazil ?
I only know the Rio Grande do Sul portuguese, and I understand it, but I am not sure it will be of a great help if I go northwards.

Greetings, Koss

Argentina

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Postby ekalin » 2003-01-25, 10:29

Portuguese of Brazil and of Portugal are certainly not different enough that Brazilians and Portugueses can't understand each other. Especially in written form, since the pronounciation is probably the biggest difference. They do sound like two different languages.

There are a few small differences in spelling, some differences in vocabulary --- sometimes with the same word having different meanings in Brazil and in Portugal. Regarding grammar, the differences are mainly in the fact that many "more complex" features of the language are not used in Brazil, especially in spoken language. So the Portuguese in Brazil would be somewhat simplified.

As for variations inside Brazil, these aren't very big. I wouldn't say there are different dialects of Portuguese in each region of Brazil, like there are different dialects in Germany or Italy. Sure, there are variations from region to region. But these are mostly of pronunciation, and of local vocabulary peculiar to some regions. None of them should case big problems for you.

Hope this helps...

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Postby Luís » 2003-01-25, 14:34

Like Ekalin has just said, the main difference (or should I say, the feature that might cause you some trouble) is pronunciation. I have to disagree with ekalin though, whe he says «They do sound like two different languages» :-) - It's simply a matter of habit. You're Argentinian, you're probably used to the Brazilian pronunciation, so it's harder for you to understand us here. Probably a Spaniard would say the opposite. It's also known that Brazilians have a little more trouble understanding us than the opposite, but I think that's because they're less exposed to the language and also due to particular features in speech here. There are thousands of Brazilians living here in Lisbon. They understand us well :-) I have noticed that it varies from person to person too. Some months ago, we had 2 Brazilian actors here, for doing some play. When they got here, they went on to a TV show to be interviewed. None of them had been in Portugal before. The first one understood it all perfectly. The second one had a great deal of trouble with it, always asking the presenter to 'repeat the question' or 'speak slower' :) - As for me, I can understand Brazilian Portuguese perfectly, if it doesn't envolve too specific slang or idioms :-) - On the other hand, I can't understand an Azorian from St. Michael Island and they're Portuguese like me :oops: :? They have such a strange accent :-D
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Postby Luís » 2003-01-25, 14:50

As for variations inside Brazil, I found this map:

Image
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-01-25, 16:24

That's a good map, but it's also worth noting there are subdivisions as well. I was born and raised in the Northeast area of the State of São Paulo (SP), close to the border of Minas Gerais (MG), and there wouldn't be all but any differences from there to Londrina, Paraná (PR), where I live now; however, if you go just some kilometres south from here, the accent starts to change (and ekalin, living in Curitiba, the capital city of Paraná, may confirm that), and in Southern Santa Catarina (SC) and Rio Grande do Sul (RS) it'll be very, very different. People in the city of São Paulo have a very unique accent as well. And someone from Goiás (GO) would also have a more peculiar one. But in that map those would all be included in the Southern (sulista) dialect. I'm also told by a friend from Bahia (BA) that, even though we Southerners and Southeasterners can't usually realise that, it's easy for Northeasterners to tell whether someone is from Maranhão (MA) or Sergipe (SE), for instance, just by their accent—something E}{pugnator might confirm or deny for us. Vocabulary may change as well—no one here in Londrina knows what a "talha" is, even though it's basic vocabulary in my hometown (the first time I said that here, people just stared at me as if I had taken, as my ex-girlfriend said, a word from the Bible! :shock: ). But don't worry, you'll certainly have no problems adapting—in the overall view of the language, such differences are really only details, as it certainly happen in most countries, especially the larger ones.

You might think of Brazilian and European Portuguese being as different as American and British English—though the difference might be just slightly larger, they're certainly far from being enough to make communication a problem. I guess Brazilians usually have a "harder" time to understand the Portuguese because the European Portuguese phonology is more complex than ours; that'd be the reason why Portuguese speakers usually understand Spanish easier than Spanish speakers understand Portuguese—even though it just takes some getting used to to overcome that, I believe. ;)
português do Brasil (pt-BR)British English (en-GB) galego (gl) português (pt) •• العربية (ar) български (bg) Cymraeg (cy) Deutsch (de)  r n km.t (egy) español rioplatense (es-AR) 日本語 (ja) 한국어 (ko) lingua Latina (la) ••• Esperanto (eo) (grc) français (fr) (hi) magyar (hu) italiano (it) polski (pl) Türkçe (tr) 普通話 (zh-CN)

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Postby ekalin » 2003-01-25, 17:37

Psi-Lord wrote:I'm also told by a friend from Bahia (BA) that, even though we Southerners and Southeasterners can't usually realise that, it's easy for Northeasterners to tell whether someone is from Maranhão (MA) or Sergipe (SE), for instance, just by their accent—something E}{pugnator might confirm or deny for us.


You don't need to be northern for that :-) I was born in Rio de Janeiro and I now live in Paraná, yet to me somene from Pernanbuco sounds different enough from someone from Bahia.

Psi-Lord wrote:I guess Brazilians usually have a "harder" time to understand the Portuguese because the European Portuguese phonology is more complex than ours;


Or maybe because people in Portugal are more exposed to Brazilian Portuguese (mainly because of TV -- soap operas and the like) than we are to European Portuguese.

BTW, I can understand now people from mainland Portugal without many problems (but it was hard in the beginning), but if it is someone from Azores...

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-01-25, 17:55

ekalin wrote:BTW, I can understand now people from mainland Portugal without many problems (but it was hard in the beginning), but if it is someone from Azores...

Luís's recording sounds way clearer to me than my own Literature teacher at university (and he's been living in Brazil for decades, or so I'm told)! :) I had a Portuguese friend from Lisbon who stutters though—tell me about understanding her. ;)
português do Brasil (pt-BR)British English (en-GB) galego (gl) português (pt) •• العربية (ar) български (bg) Cymraeg (cy) Deutsch (de)  r n km.t (egy) español rioplatense (es-AR) 日本語 (ja) 한국어 (ko) lingua Latina (la) ••• Esperanto (eo) (grc) français (fr) (hi) magyar (hu) italiano (it) polski (pl) Türkçe (tr) 普通話 (zh-CN)

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Postby Luís » 2003-01-25, 18:33

ekalin wrote:Or maybe because people in Portugal are more exposed to Brazilian Portuguese (mainly because of TV -- soap operas and the like) than we are to European Portuguese.


Perhaps... but that's too simplist :-)
Just because we have a TV channel(which has something like a contract with Globo for dozens of years :D ) and broadcasts 2 Brazilian soap operas a day isn't sufficient to explain it :) Like Psi-Lord, I think it's due to the phonology we have here, specially mute vowels. If we take the vowels out, a Brazilian may not understand, but hearing a Brazilian say all the vowels that are written it's too easy to get :-)
Similar to why Portuguese speakers get Spanish better than Spanish speakers understand Portuguese. Spanish doesn't even differentiate between closed and open vowels :-)

Psi-Lord wrote:Luís's recording sounds way clearer to me than my own Literature teacher at university (and he's been living in Brazil for decades,
or so I'm told)!


That's interesting. Usually the Portuguese get the Brazilian accent quite fast if they live in Brazil (or at least a mixed form). Once, I saw on TV this woman complaining that in Brazil everyone looked at hear as 'the portuguese' while in Portugal, everyone though she was Brazilian :-D . Sincerely I wouldn't buy that story either. Her accent was totally Brazilian... poor woman :D

Back to me :-) Well - it was supposed to be educational :roll: I had to be speaking clearly :)
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Postby ekalin » 2003-01-25, 19:12

Luis wrote:
ekalin wrote:Or maybe because people in Portugal are more exposed to Brazilian Portuguese (mainly because of TV -- soap operas and the like) than we are to European Portuguese.


Perhaps... but that's too simplist :-)
Just because we have a TV channel(which has something like a contract with Globo for dozens of years :D ) and broadcasts 2 Brazilian soap operas a day isn't sufficient to explain it :) Like Psi-Lord, I think it's due to the phonology we have here, specially mute vowels. If we take the vowels out, a Brazilian may not understand, but hearing a Brazilian say all the vowels that are written it's too easy to get :-)


Sure. But the more contact, the easier it gets. As I said, initally I had some problems in understanding Portuguese people. After one month hearing them daily, I certainly could understand much better, despite the intricate phonology of European Portuguese.

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-01-27, 10:47

I have a classmate from the North of Minas GErais, and everybody here in Belo Horizonte asks him if he's baiano when he starts talking...

I can personally say that the way people in my originary city (Vitória da COnquista, Southwest of Bahia) speak is slightly different from the Salvador accent...But I can't notice much difference in other accents of the Norther states...From the north of Bahia up (Juazeiro), everybody sound all the same (maybe with a slight difference in Maranhão) because they start speaking /ti/, /di/ and /ni/ instead of /tchi/, /dji/, /nhi/ (which is the way we in Bahia, in Salvador either, speak, although many people from the SOuth imitate our accents by prounouncing these letter like the people from the other states of the Northeast.
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Postby NulNuk » 2003-01-27, 15:45

"Indefinido" ,wow ,that allso the dialect NulNuk use !!!!!!!!
have the Brazilians stolen NulNuk dialect??? :shock:

NulNuk demands copy rights !!!!! :'0{
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I can understand 100 % of "standard" European Port

Postby Weldal » 2003-01-27, 16:34

I don't know if it's because I hear Portuguese people speaking since I was a small child, or if it's because here in Rio de Janeiro there is a large amount of Portuguese people living in the city (even a famous soccer/football club called Vasco da Gama, founded by Portuguese people), but in fact I think that I can understand 100 % of what a Portuguese person speaks, at least someone of Lisbon, let's say, the "standard Portuguese" people...

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Postby Valentín » 2003-01-28, 1:53

Obrigado for the many replies to my question. I found particularly interesting the Brazil map. I have tried to find sth similar for the Argentininan regional variations, but with no success so far.


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