Brazilian Portuguese Language Course

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Brazilian Portuguese Language Course

Postby alois » 2005-05-24, 17:20

Welcome to the Brazilian Portuguese course at the Virtual School of Languages. :P I'll post the lessons here. Questions and answers of the exercises should be posted here, leaving more advanced topics to the Portuguese discussion group.

Here we start our introductory lesson, on the alphabet and pronunciation.

:arrow: (I’ll be using SAMPA for phonetic transcriptions in this course)


O alfabeto e pronúncia portuguesa

(The alphabet and the Portuguese pronunciation)


Portuguese orthography certainly doesn’t figure among the most regular ones, but you don't need to worry about it, for I'll be using SAMPA untill you feel like you've used to it.

Vowels:

A - [a]
Ex: casa (house) = [‘ka.z@]
à - [ã]
Ex: maçã (apple) = [ma’sã]
E - [E] , [e] or /i/ (unstressed)
Ex: perto (near) = [‘pEx.tU] queimar (to burn) = [cej’max] come (eats) = [‘ko.mi]
É - [E]
Ex: é (is) = [E]
I - /i/
Ex: cinco (five) = [‘si~.kU]
O - [o] , [O] or /U/ (unstressed)
Ex: oito (eight) = [‘oj.tU] nove (nine) = [‘nOvi] como (how) = [‘ko.mu]
Ó - [O]
Ex: jóia (jewel) = [‘ZOj@]
U - /u/ , /U/ (unstressed)
Ex: duas (two fm) = [‘du.@s]

:arrow: Note on the diacritics: they are: acute (á), tile (ã) and circumflex (â) (the fourth one, the grave (à) won't be discussed by now):

Acute (á): always marks stressed syllable. It also changes “o” and “e” into /O/ and /E/ respectively. It can happen above any vowel.
Tile (ã): can only be placed above “a” and "o" to mark nasalization. It doesn't necessarily mark stress.
Circumflex (â) always marks stressed syllable and when happens above “a”, “e” and “o”, it informs that they should be pronounced /ã/ , /e/ and /o/ respectively.


Some Diphtongs (don't get scared if they seem too many, notice that they are very regular):

Ai = [aj]
Pai = father [paj]
Au = [aw]
Mau = bad [maw]
Éi = [Ej]
Coronéis = coronels [ko.ro’nEjs]
Ei = [ej]
Lei = law [lej]
Éu = [Ew]
Chapéu = hat [Sa’pEw]
Eu = [ew]
Leu = he read [lew]
Iu = [iw]
Viu = he saw [viw]
Ói = [Oj]
Herói = hero [e’rOj]
Oi = [oj]
Foi = he went [foj]
Ou = [ow]
Vou = I’ll go [vow]
Ui = [uj]
Fui = I went [fuj]
Ãe = [3~j]
Mãe = mother [m3~j]
Ão = [3~w]
Pão = bread [p3~w]
Em = [e~j]
Bem = well [be~j]
Õe = [õj]
Põe = puts [põj]
Ea = [ja]
Área = area [’arja]
Ua = [wa]
Água = water [‘agw@]
Oe = [we]
Coelho = rabbit [‘kweLU]
Ian = [j3~]
Criança = child [kri’3~s@]

:arrow: Note: all vowels are nasalized when followed by a nasal consonant:
Antes = ['ã.tSis] (before)
Entre = ['e~tri] (between)
Banho = ['bã.JU] (shower), etc.


Consonants:

All consonants that are not cited here have the same pronunciation as in English:

C - [s] before /e/, /i/ [k] otherwise
Ç - [s] can’t happen before ‘e’ or ‘i’
D - [dZ] before /i/, [d] otherwise
G - [Z] before /e/, /i/ [g] otherwise
H - no sound
J - [Z]
Q - only happens followed by ‘u’ | qua = [kwa], quo = [kwo] etc
R - [h] at the beginning of a word, [r] between vowels, [G] after ‘n’, [x] before a voiceless consonant.
Rr - [h]
S - [s] at the beginning or the end of a word, [z] between vowels or followed by a voiced consonant
Ss - [s]
T - [tS] before /i/, [t] otherwise
X - this can be a very irregular letter, see omniglot for further details (no need to worry though, since it doesn't crop up that often).

Nh = [J], like Spanish “ñ”
Lh = [L], like Spanish “ll”
Ch = [S], like English "sh"


:arrow: Note: the letters K, W and Y don’t exist in Portuguese alphabet and are only used in foreign words.


I’ll post the first lesson soon. By now, just try to get used to the pronounciation. :wink:
Last edited by alois on 2005-05-25, 22:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby alois » 2005-05-24, 22:22

A primeira lição

(The first lesson)


In this first lesson, we’ll learn:

- The subject pronouns,
- The verbs ser and estar,
- The present tense conjugation,
- Negation.



Each Portuguese pronoun has roughly about four forms:

- The subject pronoun: like English “I”, German “ich”, etc..
- The direct complement pronoun(or accusative form), like English “me”, German “mich"...
- The unstressed indirect complement pronoun (or dative form), like English “me”, German “mir"..
- The stressed indirect complement pronoun (used with a preposition): to me, für mich...


The subject pronouns, which are matter of this lesson, are the following:

:arrow: (Important!: this course doesn’t use the traditional ‘tu’ nor ‘vós’, both of which are no longer used Brazilian Portuguese (except for some areas in the south, but they aren't propperly conjugated either. To teach them would be the same as teaching “thou” and “ye” as Modern English!)

Eu [ew] = I
Você [vo’se] = you
Ele [‘eli] = he
Ela [‘El6] = she
Nós [nOs] = we
Vocês [vo’ses] = you
Eles [‘elis] = they (male)
Elas [‘El6s] = they (female)


'Ser' and 'Estar'

Portuguese has two verbs which are translated as “to be” in English: ser and estar. The first one implies a stead and definitive state, while the second, a temporary and indefinite one. Let’s try some examples so you can understand what I’m talking about:

Eu sou feliz (I'm happy): with the verb ser, means that you’re really a happy person; in fact, you really consider yourself a lucky one. You could even be crying now, but you’re happy regardless.

Eu estou feliz (I'm happy): with estar, implies a temporary happy feeling, perhaps you’ve seen someone you hadn’t seen long ago, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re a happy person.

It is always important to know which one to use. For example, you shouldn’t say “eu sou com fome*” (I’m hungry), but “eu estou com fome” instead, since hungry is not an integral part of your existence.

These (vitally important) verbs are conjugated this way in the present tense:

Eu sou [ew “sow]
Você é [vo%se “E]
Ele / ela é [‘eli / El6 “E]
Nós somos [nOs “sõ.mus]
Vocês são [vo%ses “s3~w]
Eles / elas são [elis / Elas “s3~w]

:arrow: Notice that the second and the third persons of the singular are conjugated the same way as their plural counterparts.

Eu estou [ew is”tow]
Você está [vo’se is”ta]
Ele / ela está [eli / El6 is”ta]
Nós estamos [nOz is”t3~mus]
Vocês estão [vo’sez is”t3~w]
Eles / elas estão [elis / El6z is”t3~w]

:arrow: Notes:

The ‘s’ in eles or nós becomes ‘z’ since its between two vowels.
In spoken Portuguese, none of the first syllables in the conjugation of "estar" is pronounced, thus: [ew “tow], [vose “ta] and so on.


Present tense conjugation:

Like other romance languages, Portuguese has a rather complex verbal system. This lesson deals with the present tense only.

There are three classes or verbs: those ending in “ar”, “er” and “ir”. Here’s a regular present tense scheme for each class:

Falar [fa”lax] (to speak) 1st class:

Eu falo [ew “fa.lU]
Você fala [vo%se “fa.l6]
Ele / ela fala [eli / %El6 “fal6]
Nós falamos [nOs fa”la.mUs]
Vocês falam [vo%ses “fa.l3w]
Eles / elas falam [‘elis / El6s “fal3w]

Vender [ve~”dex] (to sell) 2nd class:

Eu vendo [ew “ve~dU]
Você vende [vo%se ve~”dZ]
Ele / ela vende [‘eli / El3 ve~”dZ]
Nós vendemos [nOs ve~’de.mUs]
Vocês vendem [vo%ses “ve~.de~j]
Eles / elas vendem [elis / El6s “ve~de~j]

Partir [pax’tSix] (to leave) 3rd class:

Eu parto [ew “paxtU]
Você parte [vo%se “pax.tS]
Ele parte / ela parte [eli / El6 “pax.tS]
Nós partimos [nOs pax”tSimUs]
Vocês partem [vo%ses pax”te~j]
Eles / elas partem [elis / El6s “pax.te~j]

:arrow: Note: in the first person plural (nós), the conjugation mark gets the stress:

Partimos, falamos, vendemos…


Negation is very easy in Portuguese: just add the little word “não” [n3~w] before the verb:

Não sou = I’m not,
Você não vende = you don’t sell,
Nós não falamos = we don't speak.


Some basic greetings and polite expressions:

Olá [o”la]= Hi
Bom dia [bo~’dZi6] = Good morning
Boa tarde [bo6’taGdZ] = Good afternoon
Boa noite [bo6’noj.tS] = Good evening or Good night
Por favor [pox fa’vox] = Please
Obrigado (male) Obrigada (female) [%o.bri'ga.dU(6)] = thanks
Me desculpe [%mi dZis’kuw.pi] = I’m sorry (literally, “forgive me”)
Tchau [tSaw] = Bye


Introducing oneself:

Eu me chamo… [%ew mi “S3~mU] = I’m called …(literally)
Meu nome é… [mew ‘nõmi E] = my name is…
Eu tenho … anos (de idade) [ew te~JU ... ãnUs dZ i’da.dZ] = I am ... years old (literally “I have... years of age”)

Sou... = I'm...
dos Estados Unidos [dUs is'ta.dUs u'ni.dUs] = from the USA
da França [da 'fr3~.s6] from France
da Alemanha [da %a.le'ma~J6] from Germany
do Chile [dU Si.li] = from Chile
da Espanha [da is'pa~J6] = from Spain
da Itália [da i'talj6] = from Italy
da Rússia [da 'hu.sj6] = from Russia
do Reino Unido [dU %hej.nU u'ni.dU] = from the UK

:arrow: Perhaps you won’t understand some words in it, but they are going to be matter for our next lesson, which deals with articles, possessive pronouns, some prepositions and so on.

More greetings and our first dialogs will be posted from the second lesson on. This had the aim of introducing some primary grammar and some of the most fundamental constructions.


Exercises:

Make a very simple introduction of yourself, telling us your name, age and where you are from (ask me if your country is not in the list).

:arrow: A useful word for your introduction: e [i] = and.

Conjugate the following verbs in the present tense: dançar (to dance), andar (to walk), correr (to run), saber* (to know), beber (to drink), entender (to understand) and sair (to leave).

*This verb has an irregular first person conjugation : eu [l]sei [/l][ew ‘sej]


All criticism is welcome, let me know what you think about the course, if I can improve something and so on. By now, that's all folks, cya! :wink: :)
Last edited by alois on 2005-05-26, 22:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby alois » 2005-05-25, 22:16

Acute (á): always marks stressed syllable. It also changes “o” and “e” into /O/ and /E/ respectively. It can happen above any vowel.


:arrow: Please notice that the text was edited for correcting the word in bold (which is already the right one). The mistake was pointed out in another thread. Sorry for the typo. :oops:

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Postby Rob P » 2005-05-26, 19:21

Olá!
Eu me chamo Robert e eu tenho 16 anos. Sou dos Estados Unidos. Eu falo English, French, and some Spanish and Italian.

dançar
eu danço
você dança
ele dança
nós dançamos
vocês dançam
eles dançam

andar
eu ando
você anda
ele anda
nós andamos
vocês andam
eles andam

correr
eu corro
você corre
ele corre
nós corremos
vocês correm
eles correm

saber
eu sei
você sabe
ele sabe
nós sabemos
vocês sabem
eles sabem

beber
eu bebo
você bebe
ele bebe
nós bebemos
vocês bebem
eles bebem

entender
eu entendo
você entende
ele entende
nós entendemos
vocês entendem
eles entendem

sair
eu sao
você sae
ele sae
nós saimos
vocês saem
eles saem

Tchau,
Robert

FNORD
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Postby FNORD » 2005-05-26, 20:31

Rob P wrote:falo English, French, and some Spanish and Italian.

falo inglês, francês e um pouco de espanhol e italiano.


Language names usually begin with lower case letters.

sair
eu sao
você sae
ele sae
nós saimos
vocês saem
eles saem


The other verbs are conjugated correctly. This one is not - not your fault actually, as Hefestos forgot that it is an irregular verb: Eu saio; você sai; ele sai; nós saímos; vocês saem; eles saem.

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Postby Rob P » 2005-05-27, 3:20

FNORD wrote:
Rob P wrote:falo English, French, and some Spanish and Italian.

falo inglês, francês e um pouco de espanhol e italiano.


Language names usually begin with lower case letters.

sair
eu sao
você sae
ele sae
nós saimos
vocês saem
eles saem


The other verbs are conjugated correctly. This one is not - not your fault actually, as Hefestos forgot that it is an irregular verb: Eu saio; você sai; ele sai; nós saímos; vocês saem; eles saem.


Obrigado :D

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Postby alois » 2005-06-06, 16:05

A segunda lição

(The second lesson)


Are matter of this lesson:

- Some prepositions
- Definite articles
- Demonstrative pronouns
- The verbs ter and ir
- Possessive pronouns



Some prepositions:

It seemed necessary to me to start this second lesson with some prepositions which can form compounds, since I’m going to talk about articles and demonstrative pronouns, with which they can combine:

A [a] = to
Em [e~j] = in, on, at
De [dZi] = of, from (possession, origin, etc)

Examples:

Elas estão em casa.
[El6s is’ta~w e~j ‘ka.z6]
They are at home.

O livro é de você.
[U %li.vrU E dZi vo’se]
The book is yours (literally: the book is of you)

Eu dou o presente a ele.
[ew dow U pré%se~tS a ‘eli]
I give him the present (literally: I give the present to him)

The second two are only examples though; they aren’t the most advisable form to use here, more on that in the lesson on indirect complement pronouns.

:arrow: Examples in this lesson will sometimes use constructions which will be only explained below, so I recommend you to reread them once you’ve finished it.


The Definite Articles:

Portuguese articles agree in gender (male / female) and number:

Male singular / plural = o /U/ / os [Us]
Female singular / plural = a [a] / as [as]

They can combine with the prepositions “a”, “em” and “de”:

A = ao / aos / à / às* (to the)
Em = no / nos / na / nas (in the)
De = do / dos / da / das (of / from the)

*And here comes the fourth diacritic, the grave (à), which was temporary left aside in the pronunciation lesson. It marks the combination of the preposition “a” with the female definite article “a” (aa = à) being theorically pronounced as a long a [a:]

Examples:

O homem e a mulher
[U ‘o.me~jn i a mu’LEr]
The man and the woman

Os homens e as mulheres
[Uz ‘o.me~js i az mu’LEris]
The men and the women.

O dinheiro está no carro.
[U dZi’Jei.rU is’ta nU ‘ka.hu]
The money is in the car.

Eles são do Brasil, mas moram na Europa.
[elis s3~w dU bra’ziw, maz ‘mO.r3~w na ew’rOp6]
They are from Brazil but live in Europe.

:arrow: Notice that Portuguese uses the definite article in some situations which English does not.


The demonstrative pronouns:

Portuguese distinguishes between two pronouns which are translated as “this” in English. One, “este” and variations, is used to demonstrate things which are close to the speaker, while “esse” and variations, to demonstrate things near to the listener. “Aquele” and variations; to point things far from both. They also agree on gender and number:

This (close to the speaker):

Este / esta [‘es.tS] / [‘Es.t6] (singular - this)
Estes / estas [‘es.tSis] / [‘Es.t6s] (plural - these)
Neste / nesta (s) [‘nes.tS] / [‘nEs.t6] (combined with ‘em’ - in this)
Deste / desta (s) [‘dEs.tS] / [‘dEs.t6] (combined with ‘de’ - of / from this)

This (close to the listener):

Esse / essa [‘e.si] / [‘E.s6] (singular - this)
Esses / essas [‘e.sis] / [E.s6s] (plural - these)
Nesse / nessa (s) [‘ne.si] / [nE.s6] (combined with ‘em’ - in this / these)
Desse / dessa (s) [‘de.si] / [dE.s6] (combined with ‘de’ - of / from this / these)

That:

Aquele / aquela [a’ce.li] / [a’cE.l6] (singular - that)
Aqueles / aquelas [a’ce.lis] / [a’cE.l6s] (plural - those)
Naquele / naquela (s) [na’ce.li] / [na’cEl6] (combined with ‘em’ - in that)
Daquele / daquela (s) [da’ce.li] / [da’cEl6] (combined with ‘de’ - of / from that)

Examples:

Esta é a casa, aquele é o cachorro, esse é o pai, aquela é a mãe.
[Es.t6 E a ‘ka.z6, a’ce.li E U ka’So.hU, ‘esi E U paj, a’cE.l6 E a m3~j]
This is the house, that is the dog, this is the father, that is the mother.

Esta é a casa de meu amigo.[Es.t6 E a ‘ka.z6 dZ mew a’mi.gU]
This is the house of my friend (male).

Aquelas são as amigas de minha mãe.
[a’cE.l6s s3~w as a’mi.g6s dZ miJ6 m3~j]
Those are the friends (female) of my mother.

:arrow: In spoken Portuguese however, native speakers don’t tend to recognize any differences between “este” and “esse”, being only the last one used. This difference is almost always learnt at school and in written language only.


Ter and ir:

The verbs “ter” (to have) and “ir” (to go) are very important in Portuguese, since they can be auxiliary verbs in the formation of the past and future tenses respectively. Here are their conjugations in the present:

The verb “ter” (to have)

Eu tenho [ew ‘te.JU]
Você tem [vo%se te~j]
Ele tem [eli te~j]
Nós temos [nOs ‘te.mUs]
Vocês têm [vo%ses ‘te~j]
Eles têm [%elis ‘te~j]

The verb “ir” (to go)

Eu vou [ew ‘vow]
Você vai [vo%se ‘vaj]
Ele vai [eli ‘vaj]
Nós vamos [nOz ‘vã.mUs]
Vocês vão [vo%ses ‘v3~w]
Eles vão [elis ‘v3~w]

Não temos um gato, temos um cachorro.
[n3~w ‘te.mUs u~ ‘ga.tU, te~mUs u~ ka”SohU]
We don’t have a cat.

Ela vai a sua casa todo dia.
[El6 vaj a su6 ‘ka.z6 ‘to.dU dZi.6]
She goes to your house everyday.


The possessive pronouns:

Most Portuguese possessive pronouns don’t distinguish between stressed and unstressed forms, like in English. Something like “this is my car” and “this car is mine” would be translated with the same pronoun: “este é o meu carro” and “este carro é meu”, respectively:

Meu / minha (s) [mew] / [‘mi.J6] = my, mine
Seu / sua (s) [sew] / [su6] = your, yours
Dele [‘de.li] = his
Dela [‘dE.l6] = her, hers
Nosso / nossa (s) [‘nO.sU] / [‘nO.s6] = our, ours
Seu / sua (s)[’seUs] / [’su.6s] = your, yours
Deles [‘de.lis] = their, theirs
Delas [‘dE.l6s] = their, theirs

“Seu” and variations were used for the third persons, while “teu / tua” were for the second ones. As Brazilian Portuguese speakers started to use “você” as a pronoun (which developed from the formal expression “Vossa Mercê”, that is “Your Mercy”), the combination “de + ele” started to be used instead. It can only be used in stressed position, thus:

Aquele é o carro dele, never “aquele é o dele carro”.

"Seu" is still used in written language for the third persons, but is being gradually replaced by “dele” too, as it avoids ambiguity with the second person:

Aquele é o seu carro could mean either “his car” or “your car”, for exemple.


Examples:

Aqueles, que estão no carro, são meu pai e minha mãe.
[a’ce.lis, ci is’t3~w nU ‘ka.hU, s3~w mew paj i ‘mi.J6 m3~j]
Those, who are in the car, are my father and my mother.

Estes são meus amigos, e aqueles, os amigos deles.
[‘es.tSis s3~w meUs a’mi.gUs, i a’ce.lis, Uz a’mi.gUz ‘de.lis]
These are my friends, and those, their friends.


That’s all by now. The next lesson deals with the formation of the past, future and continuous tenses, indefinite articles, numbers and some other things. :)

Also, let me know if I should write exercises, because of the little feedback I received from the first lesson, I started to wonder if they were really necessary.

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Postby StillLilacs » 2005-06-07, 3:43

Hefestos wrote:Also, let me know if I should write exercises, because of the little feedback I received from the first lesson, I started to wonder if they were really necessary.


Hefestos,
Yes, please, exercises. :) I just found this new course a couple of days ago, so I didn't do the first exercises. But as you progress in the lessons, I think more exercises would be very helpful to reinforce and apply what we're learning. It's just one person's opinion, though. :wink:
Please, keep making these, I'm very happy to finally have something interactive on Brazilian Portuguese. Até breve :D

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Rob P
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Postby Rob P » 2005-06-07, 19:04

I will do exercises as well :D

Rob P

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Postby Kirk » 2005-07-30, 10:02

Oi! Me chamo Kirk e tenho 21 anos. Sou dos Estados Unidos e falo inglês, espanhol, francês, e estudei o coreano. Quero aprender o portugês brasileiro assim (?) aprecio realmente esta introdução! Gosto muito das transcrições em IPA/XSAMPA--creio que são muito úteis.

Ja que falo o espanhol, posso entender muito da língua escrita e bastante da língua falada mas me dou conta que há muitas diferenças complicadas, também.

Sobre o assunto das transcrições fonéticas, tenho uma pergunta sobre o consonante [c] para a combinação ortográfica "qu":

"Aquelas são as amigas de minha mãe"
[a’cE.l6s s3~w as a’mi.g6s dZ miJ6 m3~j]

é [c] ou [k] fonéticamente?

Obrigado por as lições!
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby FNORD » 2005-07-30, 15:50

Não acho que o Hefestos vá continuar o curso, mas de qualquer modo:
svenska84 wrote:Oi! Me chamo Kirk e tenho 21 anos. Sou dos Estados Unidos e falo inglês, espanhol, francês, e estudei [s]o[/s] coreano. Quero aprender [s]o[/s] portugês brasileiro assim (?) aprecio realmente esta introdução! Gosto muito das transcrições em IPA/XSAMPA--creio [b](Acho soa melhor) que são muito úteis.

Já que falo [s]o[/s] espanhol, posso entender muito da língua escrita e bastante da língua falada mas me dou conta(sei soa melhor) que há muitas diferenças complicadas[s],[/s] também.

I'm not sure what you meant on the italicized text. If you meant "I wanna learn Portuguese so I really apreciate this introduction", we would normally use "gostei muito/bastante dessa introdução porque quero aprender português.
Distingüir entre o português brasileiro e o "de Portugal" é algo raro, só usado quando a distinção entre os sotaques é necessário; a diferença entre o português falado em duas regiões do Brasil pode ser tão grande quanto aquele entre o Português daqui e o de Portugal.

Sobre o assunto das transcrições fonéticas, tenho uma pergunta sobre o consonante [c] para a combinação ortográfica "qu":

"Aquelas são as amigas de minha mãe"
[a’cE.l6s s3~w as a’mi.g6s dZ miJ6 m3~j]

é [c] ou [k] fonéticamente?

Não entendo dessas coisas, mas o meu dicionário indica [k]. De qualquer modo, se você procurar um pouco provavelmente vai achar algum sotaque que use [c].

Obrigado por as (pelas) lições!

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Postby Luís » 2005-07-30, 16:56

Some things FNORD seems to have missed...

o consonante -> a consoante (consonants, vowels and the names of letters are always feminine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish)

fonéticamente -> foneticamente (once again, unlike spanish, mode adverbs ending in -mente don't take any accents)

Svenska84 wrote:Sobre o assunto das transcrições fonéticas, tenho uma pergunta sobre o consonante [c] para a combinação ortográfica "qu":

"Aquelas são as amigas de minha mãe"
[a’cE.l6s s3~w as a’mi.g6s dZ miJ6 m3~j]

é [c] ou [k] fonéticamente?


[c] doesn't always stand for "qu". Only when it's followed by an 'e' or an 'i'. 'qua', for instance, is read [kwa]. Now, if it's [c] or [k], that depends on the dialect. Hefestos is transcribing words as he pronounces them in Minas Gerais. Other dialects of BP might not use [c]. You should have a look at the other thread called "Comentários ao curso do Hefestos" because I think the kind of pronunciation used in this course was discussed by Brazilians over there.
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Postby kibo » 2005-07-30, 17:18

Luís wrote:o consonante -> a consoante (consonants, vowels and the names of letters are always feminine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish)


No, they are femenine in Spanish too.
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Postby Luís » 2005-07-30, 18:26

Bugi wrote:
Luís wrote:o consonante -> a consoante (consonants, vowels and the names of letters are always feminine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish)


No, they are femenine in Spanish too.


Mea culpa. I got carried away by the gender of 'consoante' :oops:

The names of letters are always masculine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish.

That's how it should be.
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Postby Kirk » 2005-07-30, 20:44

FNORD wrote:Não acho que o Hefestos vá continuar o curso, mas de qualquer modo:
svenska84 wrote:Oi! Me chamo Kirk e tenho 21 anos. Sou dos Estados Unidos e falo inglês, espanhol, francês, e estudei [s]o[/s] coreano. Quero aprender [s]o[/s] portugês brasileiro assim (?) aprecio realmente esta introdução! Gosto muito das transcrições em IPA/XSAMPA--creio [b](Acho soa melhor) que são muito úteis.

Já que falo [s]o[/s] espanhol, posso entender muito da língua escrita e bastante da língua falada mas me dou conta(sei soa melhor) que há muitas diferenças complicadas[s],[/s] também.

I'm not sure what you meant on the italicized text. If you meant "I wanna learn Portuguese so I really apreciate this introduction", we would normally use "gostei muito/bastante dessa introdução porque quero aprender português.
Distingüir entre o português brasileiro e o "de Portugal" é algo raro, só usado quando a distinção entre os sotaques é necessário; a diferença entre o português falado em duas regiões do Brasil pode ser tão grande quanto aquele entre o Português daqui e o de Portugal.

Sobre o assunto das transcrições fonéticas, tenho uma pergunta sobre o consonante [c] para a combinação ortográfica "qu":

"Aquelas são as amigas de minha mãe"
[a’cE.l6s s3~w as a’mi.g6s dZ miJ6 m3~j]

é [c] ou [k] fonéticamente?

Não entendo dessas coisas, mas o meu dicionário indica [k]. De qualquer modo, se você procurar um pouco provavelmente vai achar algum sotaque que use [c].

Obrigado por as (pelas) lições!


Thanks for the corrections/advice!! :D

Luís wrote:
Bugi wrote:
Luís wrote:o consonante -> a consoante (consonants, vowels and the names of letters are always feminine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish)



No, they are femenine in Spanish too.



Mea culpa. I got carried away by the gender of 'consoante'

The names of letters are always masculine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish.

That's how it should be.


Actually, I think the names of the letters are feminine in Spanish, too. Thanks for the correction on "consonante" :) And all the other corrections/advice others gave as well! Obgrigado :)
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Postby Luís » 2005-07-30, 21:05

svenska84 wrote:Actually, I think the names of the letters are feminine in Spanish, too.


Yes, they are. But not in Portuguese, so you can drop that "too" :)
I already corrected myself in the post above yours. I wrote "The names of the letters are always feminine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish." when it should be "The names of the letters are always masculine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish."

I apologize for the confusion and hope everything's clear now.
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Postby Kirk » 2005-07-31, 0:46

Luís wrote:
svenska84 wrote:Actually, I think the names of the letters are feminine in Spanish, too.


Yes, they are. But not in Portuguese, so you can drop that "too" :)
I already corrected myself in the post above yours. I wrote "The names of the letters are always feminine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish." when it should be "The names of the letters are always masculine in Portuguese, unlike in Spanish."

I apologize for the confusion and hope everything's clear now.


Oh..ok, no problem. I'll remember they're masculine in Portuguese now :)
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby Kirk » 2005-07-31, 3:57

One question about pronouns in Portuguese, how obligatory are they? In the Portuguese I've seen, they seem to be at least slightly more common than in Spanish, which doesn't use them very often. Anyway, in Spanish I'm used to just saying the appropriate verb form and only using the pronoun if absolutely necessary for distinction. Can I do this in Portuguese as well?
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2005-07-31, 8:44

svenska84 wrote:One question about pronouns in Portuguese, how obligatory are they? In the Portuguese I've seen, they seem to be at least slightly more common than in Spanish, which doesn't use them very often. Anyway, in Spanish I'm used to just saying the appropriate verb form and only using the pronoun if absolutely necessary for distinction. Can I do this in Portuguese as well?

Not sure if the following will help at all—I was trying to think about the topic, but in the end this post will just boil down to my very personal view on it.

My personal opinion is that it depends. :P Brazilians do use pronouns a lot more than the Portuguese, but sometimes I also think foreigners abuse them too much (or even native speakers when translation e.g. from English without paying any attention to how natural the text sounds).

The first person pronouns sometimes sound a bit too much for my ears in many situations, especially in the plural, but the third person pronouns are far more common, since the singular verbal forms are shared by ele(a), você (and all the addressing pronouns), and a gente in the singular, and by eles(as) and vocês (and all the addressing pronouns) in the plural (and that without even getting into the point where, for many people and in many situations, plural pronouns will also take the singular verbal forms).

Pronouns are also more likely to be left out in the written language, even when they might actually show up in the spoken language.
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Postby Kirk » 2005-07-31, 9:20

Psi-Lord wrote:
svenska84 wrote:One question about pronouns in Portuguese, how obligatory are they? In the Portuguese I've seen, they seem to be at least slightly more common than in Spanish, which doesn't use them very often. Anyway, in Spanish I'm used to just saying the appropriate verb form and only using the pronoun if absolutely necessary for distinction. Can I do this in Portuguese as well?

Not sure if the following will help at all—I was trying to think about the topic, but in the end this post will just boil down to my very personal view on it.

My personal opinion is that it depends. :P Brazilians do use pronouns a lot more than the Portuguese, but sometimes I also think foreigners abuse them too much (or even native speakers when translation e.g. from English without paying any attention to how natural the text sounds).

The first person pronouns sometimes sound a bit too much for my ears in many situations, especially in the plural, but the third person pronouns are far more common, since the singular verbal forms are shared by ele(a), você (and all the addressing pronouns), and a gente in the singular, and by eles(as) and vocês (and all the addressing pronouns) in the plural (and that without even getting into the point where, for many people and in many situations, plural pronouns will also take the singular verbal forms).

Pronouns are also more likely to be left out in the written language, even when they might actually show up in the spoken language.


Thanks! Yeah, that's what my impression has been. For instance, on the Ruth Lemos video, she says "elas" before "precisão" whereas if that were Spanish, the pronoun would almost certainly not be said in such a situation.
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks


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