Português [Europeu] / Portuguese [European]

Postby **Luís** » 2003-02-21, 23:45

BBC launched today a new Portuguese crash course named 'Talk Portuguese'. You can find it in: http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/other/portuguese/talk
It has dialogues with text, sound and a small page with grammar notes.

Postby **Luís** » 2003-02-21, 23:53

For Strigo and other Spanish speakers, here are some hints:

(Taken from the Short Portuguese Lessons website: http://alfarrabio.um.geira.pt/spl/)

Las pocas diferencias existentes entre el Portugués y el Español resultan de la evolución separada que las dos lenguas tuvieron a partir del latín vulgar. Muchas de estas diferencias siguen un patrón, que puede ser utilizado para convertir muchas palabras de una lengua a otra. Estas reglas, que pueden ser útiles en muchos casos, no deberán ser consideradas universales. Sólo sirven para un conjunto reducido de palabras, y las excepciones abundan. ¡Tenga esto presente!

Estas reglas estan hechas para aquéllos que hablan el Español. Les ayudaran a convertir a su versión portuguesa muchas palabras en español. La operación inversa no es tan simple.

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El Español "ue" pasa al Portugués "o":
nuevo - novo
puerta - porta

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El Español "ie" pasa al Portugués "e":
fiesta - festa
miedo - medo

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Muchas veces, palabras enpezando por "h" en Español, enpiezan por "f" en Portugués. Pero hay muchas excepciones!
horno - forno
hormiga - formiga
hierro - ferro (vea también la regla 2)

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Las terminaciones "ión", "on", y "an" en Español pasan al Portugués "ão":
televisión - televisão
razón - razão
capitán - capitão

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Los plurales "ones" y "anes" en Español pasan a "ões" y "ães" en Portugués:
televisiones - televisões
razones - razões
capitanes - capitães

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La terminación "able" en Español pasa a "ável" en Portugués:
rentable - rentável
considerable - considerável

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La terminación "dad" en Español pasa a "dade" en Portugués:
igualdad - igualdade
nacionalidad - nacionalidade

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Las palabras que enpiezan por "ll" en Español, muchas veces enpiezan por "ch" en Portugués:
llamar - chamar
llave - chave

Axystos · Postby **Axystos** » 2003-02-24, 23:35

Vivo por ela eu também e não há razão pra ter ciúmes
Ela é tudo e mais além como o mais doce dos perfumes
Ela vai onde quer que eu vá não deixa a solidão chegar
Mais que por mim por ela eu vivo também.
Es la musa que te invita (Spanish)
A sonhar com coisas lindas
Vivo por ela que me dá todo amor que é necessário
Forte e grande como o mar frágil e menor do que o aquário

“I live for her, me too, and there is no reason to be jealous
She is everything and more ?? like the sweetest of perfumes
She goes where she wants so that I won’t let the loniless arrive(?)
More than for me, I live for her too
She is the muse who invites you
to dream of beautiful things
I live for her so that she gives me all the love that is necessary (?)
Strong and big like a fragile sea and smaller than an aquarium.

A minha tradução é boa? Há umas coisas que não completamente compreendo.
E sobre o texto: Pensou que gostou mais do texto dessa canção de Lúcia Moniz.

Axystos.

Postby **Luís** » 2003-02-25, 0:07

Axystos wrote:A minha tradução é boa? Há umas coisas que não completamente compreendo.
E sobre o texto: Pensou que gostou mais do texto dessa canção de Lúcia Moniz.

Good. You have improved much

Just 2 errors on your sentences. 'Gostou' is 3rd person singular, when you wanted 1st person plural - 'gostei'. And on the first sentence the adverb and the verb are on the wrong place. It should be: (...) compreendo completamente.

As for your translation, it's quite good, but you mixed up the sentences a little bit since you didn't really know where the end of the sentences was, and so you got some weird meanings :-)

- Of course that's not your fault, the way Carlos wrote it didn't quite help :wink:

and I guess you still don't have enough experience to deduce it yourself.

Here's the right division:

Vivo por ela eu também
E não há razão pra ter ciúmes
Ela é tudo e mais além
Como o mais doce dos perfumes
Ela vai onde quer que eu vá
Não deixa a solidão chegar
Mais que por mim por ela eu vivo também
A sonhar com coisas lindas
Vivo por ela que me dá
Todo amor que é necessário
Forte e grande como o mar
Frágil e menor do que um aquário

Songs are hard to translate, I won't comment style or anything like it, but rather only grammar and translation mistakes.

Vivo por ela eu também
I live for her, me too

More like 'I also live for her'. As you wrote it, it seems you live for her 'too', like if there are more people that also live for her, when the real meaning is that he lives not only for him, but more than that, also for her. I don't think I was so clear on this paragraph, but well.. :roll:

Ela é tudo e mais além
She is everything and more ??

Something like: 'She is everything and beyond'

Ela vai onde quer que eu vá / Não deixa a solidão chegar
She goes where she wants so that I won’t let the loniless arrive(?)

You mixed the 2 sentences here.
'Ela vai onde quer que eu vá' means 'She goes wherever I go'.
'Não deixa a solidão chegar' means 'Don't let the loneliness arrive'

Vivo por ela que me dá / Todo amor que é necessário
I live for her so that she gives me all the love that is necessary (?)

Something like 'I live for her, who gives me all the love I need (lit. all the love that is necessary)'

Forte e grande como o mar / Frágil e menor do que um aquário
Strong and big like a fragile sea and smaller than an aquarium.

You mixed 2 sentences here again.
'Forte e grande como o mar ' - 'Strong and large as the sea'
'Frágil e menor do que um aquário' - 'Fragile and smaller than and aquarium'

What is fragile is the aquarium, not the sea ;-)

E sim!!! Lúcia Moniz é bom

Guest · Postby **Guest** » 2003-03-10, 15:14

This is cool. I was searching how I could learn portugues and I found this. It isn't easy this way, i think, but I defenitly can use this also.

Sou escrever com um amigo brasileiro, mas eu ache está dificil para ele entendeu que eu escrevo. Eu posse (maisominos) entendi ele, mas ele também escreve as vezes palavres differente que eu aprendi. Naõ sei como posse, está um dialeto talvez?
Eu ache é legal que eu escreve aqui e um pessoa corriga que eu escreve.
O portugues de porto está muito differente do Brasil?

Quando eu tenho mais as perguntas(?) vou perguntar.

Tzao,

Roos

Postby **Luís** » 2003-03-10, 17:39

Olá Roos!

Where are you from?

You indeed have some problems with your Portuguese. It's only normal that your friend might find it a little hard to understand you. You should focus on your spelling and on some grammar points, like the good old ser/estar differences.

I'll just rewrite your whole message correctly, cause it would be too much to go through step by step. If you have any specific doubt about my correction, just say it :-)

Roos wrote:Sou escrever com um amigo brasileiro, mas eu ache está dificil para ele entendeu que eu escrevo. Eu posse (maisominos) entendi ele, mas ele também escreve as vezes palavres differente que eu aprendi. Naõ sei como posse, está um dialeto talvez?
Eu ache é legal que eu escreve aqui e um pessoa corriga que eu escreve.
O portugues de porto está muito differente do Brasil?

Quando eu tenho mais as perguntas(?) vou perguntar.

Tzao,

Estou a corresponder-me com um amigo brasileiro, mas acho que é difícil para ele entender o que eu escrevo. Posso mais ou menos entendê-lo, mas ele às vezes também escreve palavras diferentes daquelas que aprendi. < >
Eu acho legal que eu possa escrever aqui e uma pessoa corrija o que eu escrevo.
O português de Portugal é muito diferente do do Brasil?

Quando tiver mais perguntas, faço-as.

Tchau,

You should also check the Brazilian thread here on the VSL.

Roos · Postby **Roos** » 2003-03-12, 12:06

Oi Luis,

Muito obrigada!
Está muito dificil e complicado!! Mas vou aprender...
Sou da Holanda, moro na Zwolle.
Eu foi para Brasil um ano antes para dois mêses e uma meia.
Naõ estudo português, mas só aprendi dos eles lá e do dicionario.
So naõ sei uma verbo e o (grammar).
Mas tenho os verbos de você agora, do http://.....verbos.htm
Naõ entendo uma coisa,...., vou perguntar em inglais.

I don’t understand why entendê ele is éntendê-lo, why “lo”?
I think it has something to do with you wrote on the web by ‘pronomes’.
I think that is very complicade becuase I don’t understand a thing.
I can’t understand how “eles comem os boles” ever could be “eles comem-nos” ??
But maybe it’s for later. You’re right, I should first concentrate on the spelling and grammar.
And why you write “eu possa escrever” instead of “eu posso escrever” ?
Or is there a different between posso e possa (may and can?)
I tried to ask when I was in Brasil, but they didn’t understand. Nobody could speak english there..!

TCHAU,

Roos

Roos · Postby **Roos** » 2003-03-12, 17:01

Again a question,
When do you use the futuro?
And what is "I have walked" or I am began"
(I don't know these words in english too.
So I have you're verbos now, but I don´t know how to use them yet)

And you´re right, I should go to the Brasileiro SOVL, I didn´t know there was also a brasileiro one.

Roos

Postby **Luís** » 2003-03-12, 20:01

Roos wrote:I don’t understand why entendê ele is éntendê-lo, why “lo”?

Well, you can use "entender ele" if you like...

Roos wrote:I think it has something to do with you wrote on the web by ‘pronomes’.
I think that is very complicade becuase I don’t understand a thing.
I can’t understand how “eles comem os boles” ever could be “eles comem-nos” ??

Oh well... I can't explain it any clearer that on that page. It's how it works.

You see:

"Eles comem os bolos"

"Eles" is the subject, "comem" is the verb and "os bolos" is the Object of the sentence. Like in most languages, you can replace it by a pronoun.
In English you'd have:

(1) They eat the cakes
(2) They eat them

In Portuguese we simply replace a masculine plural object by the pronoun "os".

"Eles comem-os" (grammatically incorrect)

But as the verb ends in a nasal syllable "mem", that causes you to need to add an "n" to "os". So, N+OS = NOS

and thus:

"Eles comem-nos"...

Roos wrote:But maybe it’s for later. You’re right, I should first concentrate on the spelling and grammar.

You really should, before thinking about more complicated things like the pronoun stuff above, try to learn the basics well.

Roos wrote:And why you write “eu possa escrever” instead of “eu posso escrever” ?

Because they're different verb tenses. "Posso" is 1st person singular of Present Indicative and "possa" is 1st person singular of Present Conjunctive... If you never heard of this before, don't worry about it now, cause it's not the easiest thing. I really think you NEED to have solid bases before going on into this.

Roos wrote:Or is there a different between posso e possa (may and can?)

No. Same verb, same meaning.

Roos wrote:Again a question,
When do you use the futuro?

Basically on the same situations as in any other language. As you want to express something that will happen in the future.

English: "I will be rich"
Portuguese : "Serei rico"

Serei is the 1st person singular of the Future tense of "ser".

Roos wrote:And what is "I have walked" or I am began"

It depends on what you want to say... "I have walked" can be translated as many things. I'll suggest "Eu andei" or "Eu tenho andado", since I don't know what you really want to say.

I am began... I believe that's a Dutch structure. It should be just "I began" = Eu comecei.

Tjalfe · Postby **Tjalfe** » 2003-03-31, 15:10

Bom dias everyone !

I hope someone is still monitoring this group.

I have some problems (read : a lot) with understanding tenses.

I would appreciate it if someone would tell me when to use which tense since I dont own a textbook to read it in.

f.x. the word fal-ar, I read the file with how to conjugate it, but I dont know when to use which tense. So could you help me fill in this info :

fal-ar
Presente = I speak
P.Imperfeito
P.Perfeito = I spoke ?
P. Mais Que Perfeito
Futuro
Presente Conjuntvo
P. Imperfeito Conjuntivo
Futuro Conjuntivo
Condicional
Infinitivo Pessoal = Speak!! ?
Imperativo
Partícipio Passado

and if some translate into the same in English, then please explain when to use which ending.

In advance muito obrigado

Regards Lars Jakobsen (from Denmark)

Postby **Luís** » 2003-03-31, 16:25

Boa Tarde, Lars!

I will try to explain the tenses, though most don't really have an equivalent in English. The Personal Infinitive, for instance, doesn't have an equivalent in any other language (besides Galician). As for the Conjunctive, people have wrote books on that :wink:

so I'll be brief so that you can get a general idea, but will skip the details. I'll use some extra verbs besides falar to explain it better.

FAL-AR

Presente = I speak , I will speak

Falo espanhol (I speak Spanish)
Falo com ele amanhã (I'll speak to him tomorrow)

Pretérito Imperfeito = I spoke, I was speaking...

Like in Spanish, an action in the past that lasted for a period of time (had a duration) or an action that starts in the past, ends in the present or is not concluded.

Ele era muito falador. (He was very talkative)
Falava todo o dia. (He talked all day)
Quando morava em Lisboa... (When I was living in Lisbon...)

Also used as a Conditional sometimes:

Eu até falava com ele... (I would speak to him...)

Pretérito Perfeito = I spoke...

For an action in the past that is completed.

Falei contigo (I spoke to you)
Vi o gato (I saw the cat)
Falava contigo quando vi o gato (I was speaking to you, when I saw the cat) --> notice the contrast between the 2 tenses here.

Pretérito Mais Que Perfeito = I had spoken, I spoke...

An action in the past that ocurred BEFORE another action in the past.

Falara com ele antes de o ter despedido (He talked to him before he fired him) --> "fired him" is an action in the past, "talk" was an action in the past prior to that. This is probably the less used tense in Portuguese. Most of the time we use the construction "ter (Imperfect Tense) + Participle" (tinha falado...)

Futuro = I will speak

Um dia falarei chinês (One day, I'll speak Chinese)

The Conjunctive/Subjunctives are too complicated to explain shortly:
I recommend you to follow this linK: http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/PortLang/ep8load.html
and real all about it (go through the explanations). I'll just add some examples:

Presente Conjuntivo

Espero que fales inglês (I hope (that) you speak English)
Quero um guia que fale bem alemão (I want a guide that speaks good English)

Pretérito Imperfeito do Conjuntivo

Se eu falasse alemão (If I spoke German..)
Se tivesses dinheiro (If you had money...)

Futuro Conjuntivo

Quando eu falar alemão (When I speak German... )
Quando eu tiver dinheiro (When I have some money...)

Condicional = I would speak

Falaria com ele, se fosse preciso (I'd speak to him if that was necessary)

Infinitivo Pessoal = for me to speak, so that I speak, to speak

Digo-te sempre para falares alemão (I always tell you to speak german)
É para falarmos alemão (It is for us to speak German)

Imperativo = Speak!

Fala alemão! (Speak German!)

Partícipio Passado = spoken

Tinha falado (He had spoken)

Well, I don't expect you to master all the verbs by now :wink:

Just go slowly and don't worry too much about getting all tenses right at first. It'll come naturally!

Luís

Tjalfe · Postby **Tjalfe** » 2003-03-31, 17:28

Muito obrigado

This will be very helpful to me, when I start making my first sentences.

I will probably use this forum in the future to get more help

Very BEST Regards
Lars Jakobsen

crazylegs · Postby **crazylegs** » 2003-05-10, 17:40

Olá!

Eu sou Australiano, e quero aprender Português. Eu tinha um amigo Brasileiro, mas ele voltou (saiu?) em dezembro. Vocês podem recomendar um website com gramatica e palavras de Português? Também, eu quero corresponder com alguem. A minha informacão está no meu "Profile", talvez eu posso ajudar alguem falar Inglês.

Feel free to correct my grammar/spelling, I've only been learning for about 6 months by reading textbooks and listening to (and trying to translate) Brazilian music.

Postby **Luís** » 2003-05-10, 18:09

Olá

O teu português já é muito bom!

Olá!

Eu sou Australiano, e quero aprender Português. Eu tinha um amigo Brasileiro, mas ele voltou(1) em dezembro. Vocês podem recomendar (2) um website com gramatica (3) e palavras de Português? Também, eu quero corresponder (4) com alguem (5). A minha informacão (6) está no meu "Profile", talvez eu posso (7) ajudar alguem (5) a falar Inglês.

1. Most correct would be to say "partiu em dezembro" (He left in December). If you want to use another verb like "voltar/sair", you must say something more with it: "voltou para o Brasil" / "saiu da Austrália"

2. You need to add the pronoun. "Recomendar-me" (recommend me).

3. Gramática

4. "Corresponder-se" is a reflexive verb. Thus "corresponder-me".

5. Alguém

6. Informação

7. The Present Conjuctive is needed here. So "possa" instead of "posso". You always need a Conjunctive after the word "Talvez".

For grammar, I can recommend you the following site from the University of Glasgow: http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/PortLang/godtup.html

Our member Expugnator, from Brazil also has a website on Portuguese at: http://faleportugues.cjb.net

You can check my notes on pronouns, prepositions, verb conjugation and plurals at: http://clientes.netvisao.pt/luca/portugal/portugues.htm

Here at Unilang, you can find a Wordlist with basic 450 words for Portuguese at: http://anaproy.homeip.net/lmc/basicwords.pt.html

as well as some nice verb charts by Proycon: http://anaproy.homeip.net/lmc/carta_verbosreg_pt.png (Regular Verbs)
http://anaproy.homeip.net/lmc/carta_verbosireg_pt.png (Irregular Verbs)

Adeus!

crazylegs · Postby **crazylegs** » 2003-05-10, 19:02

Wow, thanks! I didn't expect a reply so soon. I'll go check out those sites.

Also, how is the letter X pronounced in Portuguese? For instance, the way it sounds in the word "baixa" compared to "táxi"?

Postby **Luís** » 2003-05-10, 23:34

The letter X can be quite difficult for foreigners indeed. But the good news is, it doesn't appear too often :-)

It can sound like:

KS

Táxi, oxigénio

SH

baixa, eixo

Z

exame, exótico

S

próximo, auxílio

There aren't rules for its usage. You just need to learn it with each word. But then again, English spelling is much worse :wink:

The only think I can tell you is that an X at the beginning of a word sounds ALWAYS like "sh".

Axystos · Postby **Axystos** » 2003-05-11, 11:18

Luis wrote:7. The Present Conjuctive is needed here.

What? You still haven't abolished the conjunctive?

Axystos.
*ainda tem pesadelos por causa do conjunctivo*

ekalin · Postby **ekalin** » 2003-05-11, 11:30

Axystos wrote:
Luis wrote:7. The Present Conjuctive is needed here.

What? You still haven't abolished the conjunctive?

We haven't, and we won't do it soon. What do you think we are? A bunch of Germans? ;-)

Postby **Luís** » 2003-05-11, 13:34

We're very proud of our Conjunctives/Subjunctives :-)

And we're also the masters of it :wink:

Only Portuguese and Asturian have a "living" Future Conjunctive amongst all Romance languages too, meaning we use the 3 Conjunctive tenses in daily life, like no other latin language ;-)