Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-03-25, 22:40

Osias wrote:"se safar".

"Não vamos deixar ele se safar dessa", "consegui me safar", etc.


Obrigado! Nunca pensei no fato de que a palavra "safado" deve vir de um verbo "safar"!

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Osias » 2019-03-26, 1:45

Bom... "safado" significa outra coisa, como "naughty".

Quando alguém se "safa" costuma dizer "tô safo". O problema é que "safo" é mais usado com o significado de "savvy".

É uma confusão.
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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Car » 2019-09-08, 11:11

Olá!

I'm currently doing Busuu's Brazilian Portuguese course. I keep on seeing structure like "Se você quiser comprar biscoitos, vá na seção de alimentação." What is this "se você quiser"? Unfortunately, (as is the case with other languages), their excellent grammar explanations stopped after some lessons.

Obrigada!

Edit: Something else I don't get: "Vamos fazê-las agora?" Fazê-las? Why?
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Osias » 2019-09-08, 16:13

Car wrote:Olá!

I'm currently doing Busuu's Brazilian Portuguese course. I keep on seeing structure like "Se você quiser comprar biscoitos, vá na seção de alimentação." What is this "se você quiser"?

I believe it's called future subjunctive in English, or futuro do subjuntivo. This is something I see mostly nonnatives getting wrong all the time except a Russian youtuber once.

Obrigada!

De nada!

Edit: Something else I don't get: "Vamos fazê-las agora?" Fazê-las? Why?

It's too formal for Brazilian Portuguese, while correct. I'm not sure what parte you are asking 'why'. Why the hyphen? Why the 'las'? That means 'them', plural feminine.
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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-09-08, 19:51

Osias wrote:
Edit: Something else I don't get: "Vamos fazê-las agora?" Fazê-las? Why?

It's too formal for Brazilian Portuguese, while correct. I'm not sure what parte you are asking 'why'. Why the hyphen? Why the 'las'? That means 'them', plural feminine.


I think maybe Car meant why is it "fazê" and not "fazer" and "las" instead of "as".
Whenever you use a pronoun to replace a direct object after the infinitive in Portuguese, the "-r" of the infinitive collapses and an "l" appears to separate the verb from the pronoun.
So "I will do it" = eu + vou + fazer + o = eu vou fazê-lo.
The reason it sounds formal for Brazilian Portuguese is that the direct object is mostly just omitted entirely, it would just be "eu vou fazer". I don't think it's as uncommon in European Portuguese to say "fazê-lo".

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Car » 2019-09-08, 20:00

Osias wrote:
Car wrote:I'm currently doing Busuu's Brazilian Portuguese course. I keep on seeing structure like "Se você quiser comprar biscoitos, vá na seção de alimentação." What is this "se você quiser"?

I believe it's called future subjunctive in English, or futuro do subjuntivo. This is something I see mostly nonnatives getting wrong all the time except a Russian youtuber once.


Obrigada!

Ciarán12 wrote:I think maybe Car meant why is it "fazê" and not "fazer" and "las" instead of "as".
Whenever you use a pronoun to replace a direct object after the infinitive in Portuguese, the "-r" of the infinitive collapses and an "l" appears to separate the verb from the pronoun.
So "I will do it" = eu + vou + fazer + o = eu vou fazê-lo.
The reason it sounds formal for Brazilian Portuguese is that the direct object is mostly just omitted entirely, it would just be "eu vou fazer". I don't think it's as uncommon in European Portuguese to say "fazê-lo".


Yes, that's exactly what I meant, sorry for not making it clearer. Obrigada to you as well, it seems the grammar isn't all that easy or is my impression wrong?
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-09-08, 20:32

Car wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:I think maybe Car meant why is it "fazê" and not "fazer" and "las" instead of "as".
Whenever you use a pronoun to replace a direct object after the infinitive in Portuguese, the "-r" of the infinitive collapses and an "l" appears to separate the verb from the pronoun.
So "I will do it" = eu + vou + fazer + o = eu vou fazê-lo.
The reason it sounds formal for Brazilian Portuguese is that the direct object is mostly just omitted entirely, it would just be "eu vou fazer". I don't think it's as uncommon in European Portuguese to say "fazê-lo".


Yes, that's exactly what I meant, sorry for not making it clearer. Obrigada to you as well, it seems the grammar isn't all that easy or is my impression wrong?


Portuguese in general? Hard to say, I don't think it's any worse than most European languages, but it's not any easier either. It's a pretty standard Romance language, on the whole. The "fazê-lo" thing I kind of think of as a phonological phenomenon moreso than a grammatical one - presumable at some point in history, the object pronouns were like in Spanish where you have an "l" - "Tengo que hacerlo", but as saying "r" and "l" directly one after another is kind of hard as they are pronunced in the same part of the mouth they blended together to become "fazê-lo". Then, at some time after that the pronouns lost the "l" but it remained frozen in that specific construction.

I think the only parts that you'll find are significantly different are some parts of the verbal conjugations (the subjunctives in Portuguese are different than in Spanish) and the positioning of pronouns in some cases. The rest is pretty much the same.

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Car » 2019-09-09, 10:33

Obrigada!
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-09-09, 17:53

Car wrote:Obrigada!


De nada, é sempre bom ver mais alguém aprendendo português! :)

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Osias » 2019-09-10, 2:57

Voto com o relator. :) :y:
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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Saim » 2019-09-10, 9:30

Ciarán12 wrote:The "fazê-lo" thing I kind of think of as a phonological phenomenon moreso than a grammatical one - presumable at some point in history, the object pronouns were like in Spanish where you have an "l" - "Tengo que hacerlo", but as saying "r" and "l" directly one after another is kind of hard as they are pronunced in the same part of the mouth they blended together to become "fazê-lo". Then, at some time after that the pronouns lost the "l" but it remained frozen in that specific construction.


Yes, you’re right, the a and o are originally contractions of la and lo. The same is true of the definite articles.

Aragonese went through a similar process but in some dialects the older forms are still visible, as in: la casa, but en a casa (although they chose to make the standard forms “a casa” and “en a casa”).

In Andalusian, the r rather than being dropped undergoes assimilation according to means of articulation, which then manifests as gemination of the l: “tengo qu’acel·lo” (sorry for the weird transcription, can’t be bothered to type it out in IPA; in the EPA secessionist orthography I think they would write tengo qu’açêl-lo).

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Luís » 2019-09-16, 10:08

There's also a nasal version of the article, to be used when the verb form ends in a nasal vowel or diphthong: eg. são-no, fazem-na
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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Car » 2019-09-16, 10:58

Obrigada, Luís.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby OldBoring » 2019-09-16, 12:05

"eu vou fazê-lo"?
Damn Brazilians.
The correct form in Portuguese is either "fazê-lo-ei" or "eu vo fazer isso né".

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-09-16, 13:08

OldBoring wrote:"eu vou fazê-lo"?
Damn Brazilians.
The correct form in Portuguese is either "fazê-lo-ei" or "eu vo fazer isso né".


I could be wrong but I think that in PT-PT "Eu vou fazê-lo" and "Fá-lo-ei" are both correct (much as in English we have "I will do it" and "I'm going to do it"). "Fazê-lo-ei" is apparently totally wrong, though maybe it is actually used by people(?).

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Luís » 2019-09-17, 8:21

Ciarán12 wrote:I could be wrong but I think that in PT-PT "Eu vou fazê-lo" and "Fá-lo-ei" are both correct (much as in English we have "I will do it" and "I'm going to do it").


They're both correct, but "fá-lo-ei" is pretty formal (not because of mesoclisis, but just because we don't use the simple future in normal conversations that much). In fact, in most cases we probably wouldn't even use the article, but rather say something like "vou fazer isso" (lit. I'll do that)
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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Car » 2019-09-17, 11:35

Luís wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:I could be wrong but I think that in PT-PT "Eu vou fazê-lo" and "Fá-lo-ei" are both correct (much as in English we have "I will do it" and "I'm going to do it").


They're both correct, but "fá-lo-ei" is pretty formal (not because of mesoclisis, but just because we don't use the simple future in normal conversations that much). In fact, in most cases we probably wouldn't even use the article, but rather say something like "vou fazer isso" (lit. I'll do that)

Wow, I just looked up mesoclisis and you sure do have some interesting concepts.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Luís » 2019-09-17, 13:42

My favorites are the ones with two pronouns, something like dir-no-lo-ás (you will say it to us). But you don't get to use that in real life that often.
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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Car » 2019-09-17, 16:23

:o Interesting stuff.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-09-17, 17:22

Achei este artigo sobre a próclise, a mesíclise e a ênclise, parece interessante.

@Car, I'd say it's nice to know about that stuff so that it's not too confusing when you come across it, but in PT-BR (especially spoken) this isn't really a thing, so don't worry about it too much! :)


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