Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

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Português [Brasileiro] / Portuguese [Brazilian]

Postby E}{pugnator » 2002-11-19, 15:25

Hello, and welcome to your Portuguese class!

I am Brazilian and therefore I'll try to focus in the Brazilian ortographic norms.

The written language itself resembles a lot the European variety. Most of the differences are in the spoken language, which differs from the European one but is easily intelligible inside the country.

I am going to work with both the spoken and the written language...

...even though I am going to start with a rather formal spoken language. We'll use many dialogues for explaining daily situations, and also small texts from magazines and newspapers.

I recommend you also to take a look (or even participate) in the European class, as it's all Portuguese for us, the language is still the same and most of the grammar and vocabulary one learns in one class will be applied in the other, specially in the first stages and in scientific, technical terms...

I'd like to read from you here. Reply to this post telling your level, why you got interested in Portuguese, which resources you use to learn it, so that we can plan our classes...You can always mail me at hidson@ig.com.br
As for the webpage I develop, Fale Português ( http://anaproy.homeip.net/faleportugues ), I plan to go on with it until the end of this year, many resources will be added...

As for starting the classes, I ask you all to study thoroughly the first lessons of my webpage, covering pronunciation. You can send me audio files recorded with your pronunciation, i'm not able to record files myself at the moment, but I soon will. After you have learned the pronunciation, we can go on with verbs and greetings for the beginners. Any intermediary/advanced learner can tell me their current stage and we'll try to develop a separate program for them.

I'll try to provide you all with cultural stuff from Brazil (including music) as long as you ask me. We can also write small texts about some cultural topics, folklore, literature, music, cities, nature and landscapes, whatever we want. I can make tests about the topics we study through the course, grammar, vocabulary, culture etc. If you are a Brazilian native speaker or an advanced learner and want to work as an assistant, feel free to contact me.

I need your fedback. Hope we all can have a great experience learning portuguese!!!

E}{pugnator
hidson@ig.com.br
http://br.geocities.com/konkero
(mirror: http://anaproy.homeip.net/faleportugues)[/b]
Last edited by E}{pugnator on 2002-11-26, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Poliglot » 2002-11-19, 17:54

Gostaria de ouvir cançôes brasileiras e poder compreender as palavras! Eu acho que podemos aprender muito assim. Não conheço nehuma direcçaõ web com as palavras de canções brasilieras famosas, tu podias explicar o vocabulário mais difícil e tambe perguntas de compreensâo. Que é que tu achas?

Poliglot

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Postby Car » 2002-11-19, 20:21

I'm interested in learning Portuguese, but can't really explain why. I'm an absolute beginner, but the Spanish I learned so far will probably help me a bit (and confuse me :lol: ).
I'll use internet resources.

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Postby proycon » 2002-11-19, 21:32

Eu quero participar no curso! Já posso falar um pouco português mas quero aprender mais! :) Especialmente sobre o português do Brasil.
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Postby E}{pugnator » 2002-11-20, 14:57

Olá a todos!

Que bom que vocês responderam!(lit. How good that you replied, meaning How good it is that you replied to me)

*Estou muito feliz de poder ensinar a minha língua. Espero que vocês estejam interessados o suficiente para poderem aprender sempre!

(I am very happy for being able to teach my language. I hope you are interested enough to be always learning) (or "to be learning everytime)

Let's answer the questions one by one:

Poliglot, eu quero muito trabalhar com música, ela é super útil, inclusive na pronúncia. Nós temos muitas *músicas* para serem estudadas, aos poucos começaremos a estudá-las.

As everybody here seems to understand Spanish, I'll "adapt" this paragraph into Spanish (I'm also a Spanish learner, you'll see many errors in my translation):

Poliglot, me gustaría mucho trabajar con música, ella es super útil, incluso en la pronunciación(?). Nosotros habemos muchas canciones para ser estudiadas, (little by little) empezaremos a estudiarlas.

The Brazilian music is fantastic, we have so many varieties, we are so rich in this point that I'm sure you will get amazed! As for the lyrics, we'll study some of them thoroughly here...If you want to find a lyric for a specific song, i always recommend you to type its name or parts of the lyric at the Google, you can ask me for translations later...

to be continued...
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Postby Poliglot » 2002-11-20, 15:31

Agora estou ouvindo música brasileira. Eu gosto muito das cançôes de bossa nova, samba, chorro, etc. Eu tenho achado doas webs bastante interessantes: uma sobre a istoria da música brasileira http://www.bossanovaguitar.com/bossa_nova_words_music.htmle uma outra que ajuda na procura das palavras das cançôes http://www.lyricsdownload.com/

Eu posso juntar todas as palavras num documento Word, mas nâo conheco bastante os autores e as cançôes deles. Podes tu dizer-me as quales cançôes e autores sâo mais interessantes para aprender brasileiro.

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2002-11-20, 17:19

Ok, let's continue with the message...I had to change the computer...

Car, your Spanish will help you a lot, you only need to be aware of the differences...I'll pay atention to correct you all when you mix up the languages...It's normal amongst Portuguese learners to use a Spanish word when they don't know the Portuguese one, I do the same when talking, writing in Spanish :lol:

proy, se Deus quiser, logo, logo você vai estar bem próximo da fluência!
(proy, hopefuly 'if God wishes', soon (emphasized, very used in spoken language) you will be very close from the fluency!)

Unfortunately I don't have a computer, or I'd start immediately with a song...I'm still not sure if I'll have internet at home when my computer arrives...Anyways, proy, you know where to find my songs...If you tell the others how to get them, we can discuss the lyrics and the pronunciation right after you have got it...You can mail them privately for this...

I'm using a gramatically formal language at this message, although employing colloquial expressions like 'logo, logo'.

*At this excerpt, you can find two "excentric" Portuguese characteristics: the future of the subjunctive, we have a special tense for it, and the conjugated infinitive (which most of the times has the same endings as the future of the subjunctive)

**In Brazil, we widely use "música" both for "music" and for "song". As you can see in the Spanish translation, I used "música" and "músicas" where in Spanish I'd say "música" and "canciones". OF course the obviously expected word for translating 'canción, chanson and canzione" does exist: " canção , but it's less used and mostly poetically, so, i suggest you to use "música" when referring to song, as well, adn not only music.

Another thing: In most parts of Brazil the pronoun " você " is the most used, so that we can take it as an standard...I, myself, always use " você"...So, keep saying "você" when using Brazilian Portuguese...it's conjugated like the 3rd person verbs...tu canta"s", but você canta (no s)...this applies most of the times.

One more thing, I also suggest you to read Luis' threads, you can find explanations that will work for both varieties and you can also find great diferences and bring them to be discussed...Poliglot is already participating on both, this is not necessary, but provided that one won't get confused one can keep doing this...

I want to ask you again to take a look at the first lessons of my page that cover pronunciation, learn the transcription system, as well, we'll be using it here specially when working with songs, i plan to transcript them integrally...

Now, tell me how do you feel with grammar, specially verbs, and which kind of exercises you want. In order to encourage Car, I'll show you the present tense of a verb in Spanish and Portuguese:

Yo canto Eu canto
Tú cantas Tu cantas
Él, ella canta Ele, ela canta

Nosotros cantamos Nós cantamos
Vosotros cantáis Vós cantais
Elllos, ellas cantan Eles, elas cantam

One thing to remember: in Brazil, "vós" will only be *seen* in the Bible, and although tu can sometimes be heard, it will be conjugated as ' você" (verb in the 3rd person) in the spoken language...And it may be very informal to call someone "tu", not exactly for a distinction between formal X informal, você X tu, but because saying "tu" the way it's conjugated in the regions that still use it is using "wrong grammar", and " wrong grammar" can be considered very informal...There's an interesting article about pronouns usage in Brazil at my webpage, check it through the link br.geocities.com/konkero , and then "Languages on topic"

Now, the corrections!

Poliglot, you should say "Eu gosto muito das músicas de bossa nova, samba, choro" for what I've said about the word música above...It would actually sound more natural to say "Eu gosto muito de bossa nova, samba, choro..."

"tenho achado" implies it is continuous, it's almost like "I've been finding"...You should say "Eu achei" (I found)..."tenho achado" does exist in Portuguese, but it's not used the same way as in Spanish/English...we use the simple present equivalent form almost everytime...I'd tell you this may change, as people are studying English and Spanish a lot here in Brazil...they are been influenced, they are even using "vou estar enviando" (as for English i'll be sending") which doesn't apply at all to Portuguese at this context. The English present perfect continuous definitely doesn't apply
in Portuguese at all, sometimes you'll use the "tenho achado" form and sometimes the simple present equivalent when translating the present perfect continuous. These are the only remarks I can make about the continuous now, I'll tell you more usage differences later, but remember: WE BRAZILIANS LOVE THE CONTINUOUS TENSES, JUST LIKE SPANISH AND ENGLISH! (differently from Portugal). So, except for the cases I mentioned and some minor others, give preference to use a continuous tense in Portuguese if you'd also use it in Spanish, English.

Eu estou estudando. - I am studying.
Eu estava cantando. - I was singing.

Let's go on with corrections:

doas - say "duas", Poliglot
istoria - história (there are many, i'd even say, opposite accent spelling rules between Spanish and Portuguese...just to clarify at this exact point:

In Spanish, you'd put a 'tilde' in María
...and no tilde in historia

In Portuguese, you'd not put a tilde in Maria
...and you do use a tilde in história

All these accent spelling differences reside on phonetical differences, specially the fact that the final i,u in Portuguese are always stressed (if there's no taccent at another syllable to amrk the stress), and final e, o when unestressed become i, u

More corrections...

the word for lyrics is 'letra'

"..mas não conheço bastante" Bastante doesn't sound good at this case (in a negative sentence)...If you want to say 'i don't know the authors enough", say 'não conheço os autores o suficiente"

Podes tu...

Replace for Você pode

dizer-me

In the spoken language in Brazil we tend to put the pronoun before the verb, then say " Você pode me dizer", even more radically than Spanish...The written language requires to use the formal grammar rules, based on Portugal, which makes it a whole-life(!) challenge for a Brazilian to know how to place the object pronouns together with the verb properly when writing...There's even a Portuguese grammar rule that defies all Brazilian usages: " Never start a phrase with an object pronoun". Brazilians do it everytime when talking, just like Spanish, and have to be aware of it when writing something slightly formal. I recommend you to preferentially put the pronoun before the verb, and then when you get in a more advanced level you can face the challenging grammar rules for the written language (You can always ask Luis for this, he seem to have been written something about it).

qual - quais
animal - animais
sol - sóis

"aprender brasileiro"

We never call our language "brasileiro", we're aware of the linguistical unity, we speak the same language...Say ' português do Brasil ' only when you want to be specific, but call the language "português" everytime...the subject we study at school is not "português do Brasil" or "brasileiro", but "português".

We tend to stress the differences between Portugal and Brazil and forget about UK x USA. It's something political. It makes the Portuguese language weaker from a political point of view to emphasize that both varieties are uninteligible, as the 'powerful men" see that Portuguese plays a important role in the world. "dividir para reinar", i used to hear at my history classes...why not so many things are hears about the differences in English? Or, who wants to make English weaker? And the differences are as many (or even more) than those between Brazil and Portugal...think of this, students...

Now let's correct Proy:

participar *do* curso (take part *of* the course)

either you say "falar português um pouco" or "falar um pouco de português", sounds more natural than "um pouco português"

...português, mas quero aprender mais...

I recommend you to use a comma everytime before "mas", before you have read enough to learn its usage...

Back to Poliglot:

Brazilian computing terms are more "english"
Direcção doesn't apply, even if it was spelt in a Brazilian way, 'direção'. Say link, endereço web, página, homepage...

tambe = também

Que é que você acha?

Congratulations for the 'é que', it's so natural!

Ok, people, sorry for the loong message, and thanks for you replies. Waiting for more feedback from you. Até logo,

Expug[/quote]
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Postby proycon » 2002-11-24, 21:26

Obrigado para a sua mensagem Expug!

As música sobre quais Expug falou estâo aqui:

http://anaproy.homeip.net/faleportugues/mp3/

Qual música usaremos para aprender?

Eu gosto mais de "Esperança" :)) Mas nâo é somente português, também há castelhano, italiano e hebreo...
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Recorded the green text

Postby proycon » 2002-11-24, 21:45

Regarding pronunciation, I'm afraid I'm don't totally have the feeling for it yet... So I've got a suggestion.. Could you record the green text (some posts above) so we can hear how it should go?

I have also recorded it myself.. I hope you can give me comments on my errors...

Proycon in Portuguese: http://anaproy.homeip.net/unilang/downl ... entext.mp3
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Postby E}{pugnator » 2002-11-25, 16:02

Lemme check ur pronunciation, proy...

Well, it's not that bad...perfectly inteligible...

First, every accent (it is acute or circumflex) makes the accented syllable carry the stress...so, should be /vôSÊYS/ , and not /BÔsês/, as it seems you have pronounced...(as for the transcription i used, i use ^ for closed vowel and ´ for open vowel...the stress is indicated by the capitalization of the syllable...i accept suggestions, it would be very hard to use IPA).

As for the Brazilian r

Beginning of words (rato), before a consonant, at the end of a syllable (morto) or double rr = English h

Another cases = Spanish r (rolled)

It seems you said "responderam" using the french R twice
You should have said /héspõDÊrãw/

Don't pronounce final "m"s, they only mark the nasalization of the voice (if we wrote m or n at the end it would make no difference, and we chose m, that's why words that would end with n in Spanish end with m in Portuguese)

The stress in words with no accent mark tends to fall in the penultimate syllable: começaremos = /kõmésaR~Emus/

Exception are some diphtongs and the vowels i and u: a word ended in u will be stressed in the last syllable, unless there's an accent mark in another syllable, of course.

The ~ is not an accent mark, but if a word carries a til (as for those ending in "ão" or "ões", the stress will fall there, unless, again, there's an accent mark in other syllable: órfão should be stressed in the first syllable.

Proy, não é "mucho, muchas", é /M~UYtu/, /M~UYtas/

The u is nasal in "muito" and derivatives...it's an exception in the language, as in "ruim" (bad): sometimes people say /h~uy/, as a diphtong, and not /hu~I/ (as two diferent syllables)...

Remember: v = v, as in English, Italian...don't say it b
And the final em is pronounced as a nasal diphtong: /~ey/ (the same that happens with am, pronounced ~aw/)
The "ti" is actually pronounced with the t having a ch sound...the same happens if an e after a t sounds like i (usually when it is the last syllable): noite is pronounced /NÔYchi/

Sorry for all the remarks, i've chose to correct as many errors in proycon'as pronounciation as I could, but you don't need to learn it at once...and you can always check the guide at my webpage...

Want something about stress? Reply me telling if you do want...It would be interesting to notice the differences between Spanish

Até logo,

Expug
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Postby ekalin » 2002-11-25, 23:37

Vou ter que meter a colher, mesmo não sendo um dos professores :-)

E}{pugnator wrote:As for the Brazilian r

Beginning of words (rato), before a consonant, at the end of a syllable (morto) or double rr = English h


Before a consonant? I'd say that before a consonant it has the standard single r sound (like in "caro"), except in Rio de Janeiro and some other parts of the country.

Also, rr (and any initial r) is not an English h. It sounds like one, especially because English teachers in Brazil pronounce the English "h" like an rr. :-) I'd personaly say it's a French or German "r". But it's better to pronounce as an English "h" than as a Spanish "r".

E}{pugnator wrote:Another cases = Spanish r (rolled)


Spanish? I wouldn't say so. AFAIK, not even in Bahia the r is pronounced like in Spanish. In a few regions (interior of São Paulo, for example), it is like the American r (retroflex). But in most parts, it is just an alveloar flap, short and not especially rolled. The closest sound would be the way some americans pronounce the "ttl" in "bottle" when speaking quickly. Or the Japanese "r", but you must make sure not to confuse with an "l" like they do.

E}{pugnator wrote:sometimes people say /h~uy/, as a diphtong, and not /hu~I/ (as two diferent syllables)...


The correct pronounciation of "ruim" is with two syllables, stress on "i". Any other pronunciation is wrong.

As for the rest, the explanations are perfect.

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2002-11-26, 11:06

Thanks for your remarks, ekalin...You're always welcome to help...

I try to be as neutral as possible with my accent, but this won't be always possible...And I also try to simplify...

I do said that the intervocalic "r" sounded like the way the American t is pronounced sometimes...And I think the differences between the Spanish r are not great enough to confuse people...I can recommend people to pronounce it like the Spanish r, they'll get acostumed to the real pronunciation while listening...Maybe I confused the name of the double Spanish r: i think this is the one that is rolled...I think it's like entonation (not tones): it's better to let the person perceive the intonation himself than try to explain in words something that can't...So, I threat them as if it were all r to me...and I did see it being transcribed as an "r", in an English-Portuguese dictionary...

As for the r, initial (rato), at the end of a syllable (porta), double (carro) and final (cantar), remember the final is weakly pronounced or simply not pronounced...

The retroflex "r" as in "porta" is too regional, it definitely isn't t the standard (unless Sandy & Junior can make it become the standard with all their fame and influence :D

At least for what I've noticed, in bahia and in minas, I can't hear any [x] or [R] at all, definitevely not...And i'm also based in the "accent" we're used to listen to daily, in national TV's...so, i've decided to threat it as an English "weak" r, it's definitevely weak, at least in most parts of Brazil, I think the "standard" does is. You can listen to my pronunciation at my webpage br.geocities.com/konkero and tell me what do you think, which sounds you think I pronounce...

The "s" before consonants, in Rio and in Salvador, it's pronounced like an English sh (as for the name of my city, people from salvador say /kõKICHta/)...I won't make it a standard, as in most parts it's not pronounced this way...

Again, I don't think I say any [x] or [R] at all, nor I think I hear it by TV reporters...

More comments are welcome, anyways...
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Postby Poliglot » 2002-11-27, 18:26

I first suggested learning Portuguese through lyrics. I have been thinking about a way we could embed the lyrics in a mp3 file, so that we can read the lyrics while listening to the song. I found a plug-in for Winamp and the corresponding editor which is used to insert the lyrics into the mp3 file. Here is the link: http://www.hiker.org.il/lyrics.htm

I have already inserted the lyrics to an mp3 file, a song by Caetano Veloso called "Sozinho". I will add it to the Library of Digital Language-rich Media, so that the tutor knows which songs and who has got them, and, consequently, be able to propose some activities about those songs. I would suggest that everybody do the same and that way we can all share the experience. Go the the Library and follow the instructions to add media to the Library.

Poliglot

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2002-11-28, 11:09

Hi, Poliglot

I can't add any media now, but if you all want we can start working with this song, I've listened to it so many times that I have even memorized the way Caetano sings it! What do you all think?! It is slow, therefore it won't be hard to understand what Caetano is singing and compare with the lyrics...I even remember that he has sung one word wrongly in the song (the song wasn't composed by him)...So, what do you think?!
Remember I have this problem with multimedia, 'coz I don't have my computer now, and for the same reason i can't record anything...But you could listen to it, I can even find a website where I can listen to it, too, although it's unnecessary, 'coz I can remember it quite well...
And after listening to the song, you can even tell me if you think the portuguese initial/double/final r is closer to the English "h" or to the French "r" (since Caetano was also born in the same state as mine, our pronounciation will be a bit alike)...
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Postby Ricardo Romanini » 2002-12-28, 4:40

Oi ... eu posso ajudar com a mídia , posso gravar as pronúncias e conversas . Eu indico um programa de bate-papo em voz (www.tivejo.com) . Quem quiser minha ajuda me mande e-mails .
Espero que gostem .. Tchau !

Hi , I'd help with media , I'd record the pronuciation and conversation . Got a good voice chat in www.tivejo.com . Who's needing help mail me .

I bet you like .. bye bye
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2002-12-28, 5:07

Mais um paranaense?? :o
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Postby Luís » 2002-12-28, 14:50

Mais um brasileiro?? :o
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-01-07, 12:16

Olá,

E aí, Ricardo, tudo bom?! Desculpe o atraso, eu estava de férias...

Estou precisando mesmo de umas músicas, se você tiver alguma que possa ser facilmente localizada por todos na internet você pode sugerí-la e nós discutiremos a letra aqui. Quanto à gravação de vozes, eu já posso fazer (você pode conferir alguma coisa que eu fiz no meu site, www.faleportugues.cjb.net ).

Tenho boas idéias para a página, mas ando sempre sem tempo, tomara que agora que eu consertei meu computador eu possa continuar trabalhando nela...

Sugestões aqui são sempre bem-vindas...
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Postby Sunny1849 » 2003-05-08, 11:02

Oi,
My name is Sunshine. I got interested in learning Portuguese when I started working with a guy from Brazil who didn't know much English. He wanted me to teach him how to speak the language better. In turn he decided to teach me his language. I was very happy too, I love talking to him, and even with our limited knowledge of each others languages, we can spend hours talking. I can't wait to become fluent in his language, so that I can understand everything that he says.

I am so happy that I found you on the web, its so hard to find someone who teaches brazillian portuguese.

Thanks :!:

Sunshine :D

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E}{pugnator
Posts: 2076
Joined: 2002-06-24, 17:27
Real Name: Expug
Gender: male
Location: Vitoria da Conquista (living in Belo Horizonte)
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)

Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-05-08, 16:49

Welcome, Sunshine!

Hope I can help you! Feel free to pos any comments, questions, doubts etc. You can also check my page at www.faleportugues.cjb.net , in case you don't know it yet. Até logo,
Expug
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.


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