UniLang

Stawrberry wrote:Just wondering, Michael, why did you post this in kotrcka's thread?

Oops I thought this was for everybody..my stupid self..lol. There I go embrarrassing myself again..

Hey, it's no problem. I just thought that this was kotrcka's personal thread, but apparently it's not so don't mind me.

Michael, welcome. You can write here. I started this thread for everyone, who just started to learn portuguese, because there is no other "beginers corner" thread here for portuguese. So, bem-vindo

Well, I did not write for so long time, so here is my text again. Full of news, full of mistakes

Um primeiro neve está caindo. O neve é um primeiro sinal de inverno. Os dias são (estais?) curtos e as noites são (estais?) longas e frias.

English translation - for sure

First snow is falling (not now, I meaned, that this first snow is falling in these days). Snow is a first sign of winter. Days are short and nights are long and cold.

kotrcka wrote:Michael, welcome. You can write here. I started this thread for everyone, who just started to learn portuguese, because there is no other "beginers corner" thread here for portuguese. So, bem-vindo

Well, I did not write for so long time, so here is my text again. Full of news, full of mistakes

Um primeiro neve está caindo. O neve é um primeiro sinal de inverno. Os dias são (estais?) curtos e as noites são (estais?) longas e frias.

English translation - for sure

First snow is falling (not now, I meaned, that this first snow is falling in these days). Snow is a first sign of winter. Days are short and nights are long and cold.

Obrigado, kotrcka!

I will try to correct some obvious grammatical mistakes in your text, but since I am only partially acquainted with Portuguese idiomatic phrases, I don't think I'll be able to translate um primeiro neve exactly into the proper terms:
Um primeiro neve A(s) primeira(s) neve(s) está(/-tão) caindo. O A neve é um o primeiro sinal de do inverno. Os dias são (estais?)* curtos e as noites são (estais?) longas e frias.
* The second person plural pronoun vós and its respective conjugations are rather archaic, and are only seen in religious services and political speeches. The same applies with the respective Spanish pronoun vosotros: you never, ever hear it colloquial conversation here in Latin America, and the only time I see it used highly is at the religious services we attend (especially Catholic masses) and in hymnals and occasionally prayer books; the only exception to the rule is Spain, which still actively uses the pronoun in colloquial speech. Given that, I still learn the second person plural conjugations in both Spanish and Portuguese, mainly because I write occasional poetry in them.

Basically, all you have to master for now are the differences between the definite and the indefinite articles. I actually used to have trouble speaking without them: Polish doesn't have them along with your native language Slovak. At first I found it hard to speak without uttering le/la or nu/na before every noun but now I've gotten control of it

Michael wrote:Um primeiro neve A(s) primeira(s) neve(s) está(/-tão) caindo. O A neve é um o primeiro sinal de do inverno. Os dias são (estais?)* curtos e as noites são (estais?) longas e frias.

I just have to add two things to Michael's correction. In European Portuguese you should prefer to say a cair, instead of caindo. The gerund is used quite more often in Brazil than in Portugal. Also, de inverno would be correct as well.

Michael wrote:* The second person plural pronoun vós and its respective conjugations are rather archaic, and are only seen in religious services and political speeches.

That's not true, but I don't blame you for thinking that. I know of Portuguese professors teaching Portuguese abroad who say the exact same thing and have stopped teaching it . What seems to be happening is that the people who say the vós form is not used anymore are suffering from severe nearsightedness.

I don't deny that it is rapidly falling out of use, but there are several regions (especially up north) where it is still the standard form. I have friends my age (~30), quite intelligent and educated, who still use it as the default form of addressing multiple people. Even I use it one time or another and I can assure you I'm neither a politician nor a priest.

sergiolopes wrote:

Michael wrote:* The second person plural pronoun vós and its respective conjugations are rather archaic, and are only seen in religious services and political speeches.

That's not true, but I don't blame you for thinking that. I know of Portuguese professors teaching Portuguese abroad who say the exact same thing and have stopped teaching it . What seems to be happening is that the people who say the vós form is not used anymore are suffering from severe nearsightedness.

I don't deny that it is rapidly falling out of use, but there are several regions (especially up north) where it is still the standard form. I have friends my age (~30), quite intelligent and educated, who still use it as the default form of addressing multiple people. Even I use it one time or another and I can assure you I'm neither a politician nor a priest.

I did know that vós is still used in the more remote areas of Portugal, but that due to the presence of much Brazilian media in Portugal, it is rather becoming outdated. I am indeed someone who does not like to see this happen I mean, I've rather gotten used to only você and vocês, but it still sounds weird to me I am a full supporter of vós!

Michael wrote:I did know that vós is still used in the more remote areas of Portugal, but that due to the presence of much Brazilian media in Portugal, it is rather becoming outdated. I am indeed someone who does not like to see this happen I mean, I've rather gotten used to only você and vocês, but it still sounds weird to me I am a full supporter of vós!

Again, I disagree. You can hardly say that Porto, Braga and Aveiro, for instance, are some of the "more remote areas". To be honest, I don't have any preference, but I heartily dislike inaccurate things being spread as "fact".

sergiolopes wrote:I know of Portuguese professors teaching Portuguese abroad who say the exact same thing and have stopped teaching it

Well, I wouldn't advocate teaching vós to beginners either. In theory standard European Portuguese is based on the dialect(s) spoken between Coimbra and Lisbon and in that area the usage of vós is indeed restricted to religious services/epic dramas.

Of course it's still used by some people in the northern areas of Portugal, as you say, but I would consider it a regional variation and in that sense better left for later stages or learning.

I don't see why not. Even though it is not that commonly used and is absent from the standard spoken language, it is not dead and, yes, you will find it in non-epic-non-religious-non-political literature.

Granted, it's knowledge that won't be extraordinarily useful in most situations, so the learners' time and energy could be better spent on other subjects, but eliminating vós altogether as if it weren't part of the language anymore, is ridiculous.

I like natives' fights