European vs. Brazilian

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Poirot
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Poirot » 2018-02-02, 16:18

Obrigado, osias. Currently, I am not learning the slang. I am just learning the regular way to talk. So any slang is helpful. I have a book that features Brazilian slang but that book is like a decade old and I don't know how widespread some of the slang is. Is vai bundo widespread? Also, I never got the font for Portugues letters with the accents and everything. Does your computer feature that or did you download a specific font?

By the way, Ze, it looks like you're mixing your Portuguese with German and French. Because I've never seen Portuguese like that. It's understandable why you would mix languages since you're a Portuguese speaker, living in a German city, near the French border, trying to communicate with an English speaker. :P

And yes, she did say she's from SE minas. Perhaps she didn't say the carioca accent is the most widely used. Perhaps she said it was the most widely understood. I'll ask her on our next lesson.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Osias » 2018-02-02, 16:59

Typing words with accents is not related to fonts. Every font has already accents, otherwise you wouldn't see them on your own screen. What you need to do is to configure your keyboard to do that. There are sites explaining how to do that with images or videos better than I can, look it up on google.

"vai fundo" was once a very widespread slang/idiom in the 80s, maybe 70s, I don't know. It's very used today, as you can see doing a twitter search: https://twitter.com/search?vertical=def ... 2&src=typd

I can't tell how much it's used, but I'm sure is a lot still.

(Just to be sure: it means something like "go ahead, just do it, dive into it". literally: "go deep")
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-03, 13:40

Poirot wrote:Obrigado, osias. Currently, I am not learning the slang. I am just learning the regular way to talk. So any slang is helpful. I have a book that features Brazilian slang but that book is like a decade old and I don't know how widespread some of the slang is. Is vai bundo widespread? Also, I never got the font for Portugues letters with the accents and everything. Does your computer feature that or did you download a specific font?

By the way, Ze, it looks like you're mixing your Portuguese with German and French. Because I've never seen Portuguese like that. It's understandable why you would mix languages since you're a Portuguese speaker, living in a German city, near the French border, trying to communicate with an English speaker. :P

And yes, she did say she's from SE minas. Perhaps she didn't say the carioca accent is the most widely used. Perhaps she said it was the most widely understood. I'll ask her on our next lesson.


(pt)(de)(fr)(es)eu tou alternando as minhas mensagens, numa é europano e inglês (com reforma ortografica), na outra sao as línguas individuais com reforma ortografica e inglês, tamém com reforma ortografica. aber ich schreibe noch nich richtig auf europano, sondern in den einzelnen sprachen, wie sie allmählich zum europano konvergiren. ee lee reformes orthografic sont encor au début, je vais doucement... de cualquier forma, quizás quieras ver este video sobre la lengua portuguesa que cargué en youtube el mes pasado, el también es hablado en las 5 lenguas que hablo, (proto-)europan y otras lenguas, y como en este mensage, el europan y las reformas solo están empezando. tem uma versao compacta, só sobre o conteúdo - a língua portuguesa - e a versao longa, pra linguólico, mais que meia hora... a propósito, eu falo em 4 sotacs portugueses, o português de portugal, o português oficial do brasil, o brazileis de rua de sao paulo e o brazileis do nordestino (eu nao sei com cual nível de competência...). der link is weiter unten.

sur le probleme avec lee characteres: en mi teclado alemán tengo acento agudo, grave y circunflejo en el teclado. eu nao tenho til nem cedilha. brasilianer im ausland schreiben meistens einfach ohne, also 'coracao' für 'herz'. jécris 'corassao'. 'ao' cest pas un probleme, parce quil est toujours /@uN/ sauf dans le mot 'ao' (au). y así, en mi reforma, no necesito de tilde, y la C con cedilla la remplazo con S o SS. mas se você nao tem acento agudo e circumflexo, é complicado mesmo...

brasilianische akzente: ich wüsste nich welcher verständlicher is, ich würde mir nur denken, dass der akzent vom nordosten, vor allem vom inland, am schwirigsten is. il mangent trop de lettres...


(en)i'm alternating my messsages, in one message it is europano and english (with reformd spelling), in the other i write in the individdual languages with reformd spelling and english, also with reformd spelling. but i dont write in proper europano yet, i'm writing in the individdual languages that converge to europan. and the spelling reforms ar still at the beginning, we go slowly slowly catchy monkey. anyway, maybe you'd like to see this viddeo about the portuguese language i loded up on youtube last month, it is also spoken in the 5 languages i speek, (proto-) europan and other languages, and as in this message, the reforms ar just starting. thare is a compact version, only about the contents - the portuguese language -and the long version, for linguaholics - mor than half an hour... by the way i speek in 4 portuguese accents, the portuguese of portugal, the oficial portuguese in brazil, the street-"brazilish" of sao paulo and the nordestern brazilian (i dont know with which level of competence...).

about the problem with the fonts: i hav accent aigu, grave and circumflex on the keebord. i dont hav tilde and cedille. brazilians abroad write usually without any, thus 'coracao' for 'hart'. i spell 'corassao'. 'ao' is not really a problem, since it is always nasal, /@uN/, except in the word 'ao' itself (=to the). so, in my reform, i dont need a tilde, and the cedille C is replaced with S or SS, depending on the situation. but if you dont hav accent aigu and circumflex, it gets really complicated... and technically i'm at the level of a moronic chimpanzee.

brazilian accents: i wouldnt know which accent is mor undertandable for other brazilians, i'd say most ar similar in thare intelligibility, but i could imagine that the most dificult accent would be the nordestern brazilian, especially the one from the countryside. they swallow too many letters...

la lincu pro la longo vercion, pro linguaholikis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5_apIpXIY8&t=23s.
la lincu pro la compacto vercion, pro normale pople: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsTDhZpPwus
la lincu pro el index: http://www.zedorock.net/youtube.html

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby OldBoring » 2018-02-05, 21:11

Deus... pelo menos escreve em português padrão no fórum português ué... :|

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Poirot » 2018-02-05, 23:29

Holy shit! I'm trying hard to practice Portuguese by using it whenever possible, even a little bit. So I've been saying, "vai bundo!" any chance I get. I just watched Ze's long video. In it he talks about how bunda means buttocks and how the Germans have the word bund frequently in their language. At that point I realized I've been saying, "Go ass!"! So I've spent the last 10 minutes frantically editing out the words vai bundo on other forums I frequent. I've also been telling my mother, "Vai bundo!" She's on a weight loss program. I said to her today, "Ah mom, you lost 2 pounds last week. Vai bundo!" "What does that mean?" "It's Portuguese for 'go deep'!" In reality, I've been telling my mother, "Go ass!" :shock:

I never thought I'd be a little relieved that she's getting senile and can't remember the things I've been telling her.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Osias » 2018-02-06, 0:25

:hmm:
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-10, 17:11

OldBoring wrote:Deus... pelo menos escreve em português padrão no fórum português ué... :|


(de)(pt)(fr)(es)für die portugisisch-lernenden: o pessoal pod aprender português scrito com todos os outros aqui, e comigo português falado...

une argentine ma racontee quell a apris portugais 3 ans dans luniversitee, ee cand ell est arrivee au brasil ee a écoutee le gens, ell a dit: o no me ensenharon portugués, o nunca se abló portugués en brasil!

i poirot: pass auf beim pizza bestellen...

(en)for the ones who ar lerning portuguese: they can lern written portuguese with all the others, and with me spoken portuguese...

an argentinian friend of mine told me that she had lernd portuguese in the university for 3 yeers, and wen she arrived in brazil and listend to peeple talking, she sed: either they never taut portuguese to me, or they'v never spoken portuguese in brazil!

and, poirot: take care wen ordering the pizza...

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Poirot » 2018-02-22, 15:43

Uma pregunta, por favor? Quantos dialettos e accents in Brasil e Portugal? (Como se dice "dialects and accents" em português?)

Outra pregunta: porque falo " Falo português há três meses" pero não "Falo português para três meses"?

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Osias » 2018-02-22, 18:27

Poirot wrote:Una pregunta, por favor? Cuantos dialectos y acentos hay en Brasil y Portugal? (Como se dice "dialects and accents" en portugués?)


En portugués se dice 'dialetos e sotaques'. Hay muchísimos, busque en la Wikipédia.

Otra pregunta: porque hablo " Falo português há três meses" pero no "Falo português para três meses"?

La primera quiere decir 'since 3 months ago' y la otra quiere decir "for 3 months" y no hace mucho sentido.
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Poirot » 2018-02-22, 18:56

Osias, fala espanhol? Porque?

Como se dice "why are you correcting my Portuguese with Spanish on the Portuguese forum"?

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Poirot » 2018-02-22, 19:40

Edit: I misinterpreted Osias' intention to help me to mean he was being rude. The matter has been cleared up. I am editing my post to remove these unnecessary comments. Once again, my apologies, Osias.
Last edited by Poirot on 2018-02-22, 23:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Poirot » 2018-02-22, 21:13

Edit: I misinterpreted Osias' intention to help me to mean he was being rude. The matter has been cleared up. I am editing my post to remove these unnecessary comments. Once again, my apologies, Osias.
Last edited by Poirot on 2018-02-22, 23:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Osias » 2018-02-22, 22:17

Poirot wrote:In conclusion, Osias, I find your frequent, "do a search" response discouraging. I am not asking because I am stupid or lazy. I am asking because the search results have a good chance of bringing the wrong answers. Therefore, I ask a native speaker because his response has a much greater chance of being correct.


I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. You ask me things I don't know. To answer that, about dialects and accents, I would have to resource to Wikipedia or google.

These subject of dialects is not well understood by lay people here, only linguists and there are lots of controversies. Most lay people will deny they speak a 'dialect'. I never learned what are the dialects because there's no official list. Wikipedia probably will a list based on a proposal by some linguists or books.

Poirot wrote:By saying, "look it up on the internet", you are saying I am not worth taking the time to talk about your culture.

Again, I'm sorry. You can talk to me whatever you want about Brazilian culture. But subjects I don't understand I'll have to say I don't, and suggest something. Notice I didn't suggest 'go on the internet', but named a specific site I though it would be useful and with most up-to-date information.
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Poirot » 2018-02-22, 23:34

My apologies, Osias. I'm on edge. Web forums are full of condescending/rude people and I'm quick to get defensive.

Certain phrases used on web forums are meant to be insulting, such as, "look it up on the internet," "google is your friend," "wikipedia is your friend", "look it up on wikipedia or google". The phrase "wikipedia is your friend" is meant to be an insult:

wikipedia is your friend
A way to admonish a person who derails an Internet conversation by demanding the definition for commonly used words or phrases instead of taking a minute or two to simply look it up on Wikipedia.
"Last night I was playing WoW with some friends and these two Undead Rogues came out of nowhere and ganked me."
"What the hell is WoW and what is ganking?"
"WoW = World of Warcraft, ganking = player killing. Wikipedia is your friend, dude."

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... r%20friend

And sometimes people use "look it up on the internet", "look it up on wikipedia", "google is your friend" interchangeably with that phrase.

I've been on countless forums where posters insult people, especially new members, for no reason whatsoever. Sometimes saying things like, "I know the answer to that question. It's called why don't you look it up on wikipedia?" I never know if the new forum I get into is one of those types of forums.

So I snapped at you because of the wikipedia suggestion because I thought you were being insulting. I am extremely sorry for that. Please accept my apologies. Desculpe.

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Osias » 2018-02-23, 0:46

Tudo bem.

Uma coisa curiosa é que eu nasci no nordeste e tinha supostamente sotaque nordestino quando criança, mas eu não me lembro.

Nem me lembro de ter perdido o sotaque.

Além disso não há um 'sotaque nordestino' só, há subdivisões... pelo menos eu acho que há, mas quando vejo mapinhas como o da Wikipédia eu acho que eles destoam da realidade, mas não tenho capacidade de provar que ele está errado: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Port ... Brazil.png

No artigo de lá por exemplo fala que o sotaque baiano é falado em Sergipe. Eu morei em Sergipe. Se fosse por mim diria que o sotaque de lá é mais alagoano que baiano. Aliás, quase nada baiano. Além disso, artigos como este começam a falar de coisas de fonologia que eu não entendo e não consigo perceber na vida real: "greatest tendency to pronounce unstressed vowels as open-mid [ɛ] and [ɔ]."

Chega nesse ponto eu canso e paro de ler.
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Poirot » 2018-02-23, 3:30

Osias, concordo inteiro (mente?) com tudo escreveu. Acadêmicos (como se dice "can be wrong" in português?) e chato. Tenho um livro "501 Portuguese verbs". Olha:

Image

What the hell does preterit indicative, pluperfect subjunctive, conditional tense mean? As pessoas não sabem esses palavras de gramaticás. Or when linguists say, "The gerund is formed with a fricative stop while the perfect conditional is formed by using an voiceless uvular r." I don't know what the hell that means.

Em minha opinião, e melhor (como se dice "it's better to ask the locals than academics"?) porque recebo um melhor reposta.

Como se dice "corrections on my grammar are much appreciated"?

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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Osias » 2018-02-23, 13:35

Poirot wrote:Osias, concordo inteiramente com tudo que você escreveu. Acadêmicos podem estar errados e chato. Tenho um livro "501 Portuguese verbs". Olha:

Image

What the hell does preterit indicative, pluperfect subjunctive, conditional tense mean? As pessoas não sabem esses palavras de gramaticas. Or when linguists say, "The gerund is formed with a fricative stop while the perfect conditional is formed by using an voiceless uvular r." I don't know what the hell that means.

Em minha opinião, é melhor perguntar aos nativos que aos acadêmicos porque recebo uma reposta melhor .

Como se diz "corrections on my grammar are much appreciated"?
"Agradeço desde já as correções" mas não precisa dizer nada, estamos no Unilang, todo mundo se corrige o tempo todo.

Sei lá.
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Re: European vs. Brazilian

Postby Zé do Rock » 2018-02-24, 13:20

Poirot wrote:Osias, concordo inteiro (mente?) com tudo escreveu.


concordo inteiramente com tudo que escreveu.

Poirot wrote:Acadêmicos (como se dice "can be wrong" in português?) e chato.


Acadêmicos sao chatos (A with tilde, but i dont hav it and i dont use it).

can be wrong - podem estar errados (in brazileis, /pOdZiN ta e'hadu/)

e for é: thare ar quite a few cases ware the accent is superfluous, but not heer, since it can be confounded with 'e' (and). wen brazilians ar abroad and thare keebord doesnt hav accents, they leev them out, but in the case of 'é' they usually spell 'eh'.

como se dice > como se diz

Image

Poirot wrote:What the hell does preterit indicative, pluperfect subjunctive, conditional tense mean? As pessoas não sabem esses palavras de gramaticás. Or when linguists say, "The gerund is formed with a fricative stop while the perfect conditional is formed by using an voiceless uvular r." I don't know what the hell that means.

Em minha opinião, e melhor (como se dice "it's better to ask the locals than academics"?) porque recebo um melhor reposta.

Como se dice "corrections on my grammar are much appreciated"?


(pt)(de)(fr)(es)indicativo é o caso "normal". subjunktiv is schwiriger zu erklären. mais pour un fransais cest plus facil, cest le meme que le subjonctif fransais. pero parece que tampoco lo sabes en francés... é o que se usa em certas orassoes subordinadas, qui pedim automaticament por uma outra orassao: "si eu fizeci isso,..." - was dann? en fransais tu as le subjonctif: "tu l'as fait", mais "j'espère que tu l'AIES fait". 'je savais', pero 'si je susse'. ou: "que je sache"

si você quer aprender portugueis do brasil, nao precisa aprender o personal infinitiv, ja qui na fala nao si usa i frecuentment na scrita tamém nao. das present indiccativ is wichtig, klar, aber im endefekt musst du nur 3 formen lernen: eu fabrico, você/eli/a jent fabrica, voceis/elis fabricam. dans lee classes plus pauvres (o "povao") souvent tu écoutes que 2 formes: eu fabricO, o resto fabricA.

imperfect indiccativ: fabricava (fabriquais). fabricava-fabricava-fabricava-fabricava-fabricava(m)-fabricava(m).

preterit indiccativ: (j'ai fabriqué). ei-ou-aram (fabriquei-fabricou-fabricou-fabricou-fabricaram-fabricaram)

la forma 'fabricámos' solo existe en portugués de portugal, en brasil es 'fabricamos' (ou 'a jent fabricou' (en portugués normal, "a gente fabricou").

simple pluperfect indiccativ: nao si usa no brasil. wi im francian, nimmt ma die zusammengesetzte form: eu tinha fabricado, j'avais fabriqué. cest le pacee du pacee (cuando eu cheguei, ela ja tinha ido embora - can je suis arrivee, elle avait déja sen allee).

future indiccativ: tampoco se utiliza en brasil, normalmente utilizase la forma composta: eu vou fabricar, como im franceis 'je vais fabriquer'.

imperfect subjunctiv: SE eu fabricasse, si je fabriquasse. se eu fabricasse computadores, eu teria mais dinheiro (mais eu nao fabrico computadores).

future subjunctiv: SE eu fabricar computadores (no futuro), eu vou ficar rico (si je fabrique des ordinateurs (au futur), je vais devenir rich. (é uma pocibilidad real, ou pelo menos eu considero ela real)

hir musst du die konjugationen auch nich lernen, normal sagt man 'fabricar' und das wars.

lee 3 temps suivants dans la liste sont trai rares:

present perfect subjunctiv: ela nao acredita QUE eu tenha fabricado computadores em 2012.
past perfect or pluperfect subjunctiv: SE eu tivesse fabricado computadores no ano passado, agora eu estaria rico.
future perfect subjunctiv: puh!... eu vou ficar rico, SE eu tiver fabricado um milhao de computadores até 2020.

(el último es el pasado del futuro)

es verdad, los tecnicos nunca escriben las instrucciones de uso de una forma que la jente que solo tiene un conocimiento basico comprenda, y los linguistas tampoco...

it's better to ask the locals than academics - é melhor perguntar pro pessoal local qui pra academico (ou im portugueis oficial, "é melhor perguntar ao pessoal local que aos acadêmicos").

corrections on my grammar are much appreciated - corressoes a minha gramatica sao muito benvindas (como eu dici, eu nao tenho cedilha, til, etc, i eu nao uso mesmo...)


(en)indiccativ is the default case. subjunctiv is mor dificult to explane. but for the francis it is eesier, it is the same as the franch subjonctif. but it seems you dont know it in franch either - i dont know them all myself. it is wat you use in certan subordinat claus, that ask automatically for another sentence. "if i did that..." wat? in franch you hav the subjunctiv: "tu l'as fait", but "j'espère que tu l'aies fait". 'je savais', but 'si je susse'. (???)

if you want to lern brazilian portugase, you dont hav to lern the personal infinitiv, since we dont conjugate it in speech, and not offen in written text. the present indiccativ is important, of course, but in the end you hav to lern 3 forms: eu fabricO, você/eli/a jent fabricA, voceis/elis fabricAM. dans lee classes plus pauvreS souvent tu écoutes que 2 formes: eu fabricO, o resto fabricA.

imperfect indiccativ: fabricava (fabriquais). fabricava-fabricava-fabricava-fabricava-fabricava(m)-fabricava(m).

preterit indiccativ: (j'ai fabriqué). ei-ou-aram (fabriquei-fabricou-fabricou-fabricou-fabricaram-fabricaram)

the form 'fabricámos' only exists in european portugase, in brazil it is 'fabricamos' (or 'a jent fabricou' (in normal portugase, "a gente fabricou").

simple pluperfect indiccativ: we dont use it in brazil, except in poetry or in very academic texts. as in franch, we usually take the composed form: eu tinha fabricado, j'avais fabriqué. its the past of the past (cuando eu cheguei, ela ja tinha ido embora - can je suis arrivee, elle avait déja sen allee).

future indiccativ: we dont use it either, only sometimes in written form. normally we use the composed form: eu vou fabricar, as in franch 'je vais fabriquer'.

imperfect subjunctiv: SE eu fabricasse, si je fabriquasse. se eu fabricasse computadores, eu teria mais dinheiro (but i dont produce computers).

future subjunctiv: SE eu fabricar computadores (no futuro), eu vou ficar rico (si je fabrique des ordinateurs (au futur), je vais devenir rich. (it's a real possibility, or at leest i considder it real)

heer you dont hav to lern the conjugation either, normally you say 'fabricar' and thats enouf.

the following 3 tenses on the list ar quite rare:

present perfect subjunctiv: ela nao acredita QUE eu tenha fabricado computadores em 2012.
past perfect or pluperfect subjunctiv: SE eu tivesse fabricado computadores no ano passado, agora eu estaria rico.
future perfect subjunctiv: pooh!... eu vou ficar rico, SE eu tiver fabricado um milhao de computadores até 2020.

(the last tense is the past of the future)

it's tru, tecnicians never write instructions for use in a form that peeple with only a basic knowlege understand it, and the same applies for linguists...

it's better to ask the locals than academics - é melhor perguntar pro pessoal local qui pra academico (or in oficial portugase, "é melhor perguntar ao pessoal local que aos acadêmicos").

corrections on my grammar are much appreciated - corressoes a minha gramatica sao muito benvindas (as i sed, i dont hav cedille, tilde, etc, and i dont use them anyway...)


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