brazilian grammar questions

Moderator: Luís

kman1
Posts: 1028
Joined: 2005-10-04, 0:16
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

brazilian grammar questions

Postby kman1 » 2007-09-23, 2:54

I made the sentences below to get a feel of how different English tenses are expressed in brazilian portuguese. Please check what I've written for accuracy and please explain the ones I got wrong or didn't know.

1. I speak Spanish.
2. I used to play video games.
3. I ate a cookie 5 min. ago.
4. Last year he was ill.
5. When his parents built the house, he was ill.
6. At the beginning of this year he has been ill, now he is fine again.
7. He had broken a leg, therefore he couldn't come to school.
8. I’m reading a book now.
9. I was working while she was studying.
10. I was eating there (- let's say lunch) until I got to know that there were cockroaches in the kitchen. Then I left (immediately).

11. I had been lying there for 3 hrs. before I fell asleep.
12. You will have been eating for 10 min. when I finish.
13. He wants me to go home now.
14. I would buy more food but I’m full now.
15. You are baptized now. ‘passive’
16. You were baptized for 5 min. ‘passive’
17. The city was destroyed by the fire ‘passive’
18. I had been baptized 3 times by 2001.
19. I will have been baptized 6 times by 2002.
20. If he paid me more, I would stay. (2 possibilities for ‘if he paid me more’)*
21. We would have built the house, if we had had the money.*


In my portuguese translation, I only translated the verb portion of the sentences. that's the only part I'm concerned with. So remember when correcting what I wrote I only need the verbs NOT the whole sentence. (unless you feel translating the entire sentence would be better for everyone viewing the post)

1. falo
2. jogava
3. comei
4. era doente
5. construiam , era
6. tem sido doente , mas agora é bom
7. tinha quebrado , não podia vir
8. estou lendo
9. trabalhava , estudava
10. comia
11. se tinha encontrado
12. terás comido
13. quero ir
14. compraria
15. sou matado
16. era matado
17. era destruido
18. tinha sido matado
19. terei sido matado
20. pagou , permaneceria
21. teria construido , tinha tido

User avatar
Psi-Lord
Posts: 10087
Joined: 2002-08-18, 7:02
Real Name: Marcel Q.
Gender: male
Location: Cândido Mota
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: brazilian grammar questions

Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-09-23, 8:48

Alternative possibilities after a slash. I corrected the lack of accent marks as well. I didn’t feel like translating the full sentences, although that might be good for context. And, in the cases where I used both ter and haver as auxiliary verbs, the latter is usually more used in the written language or in less colloquial styles.

kman1 wrote:1. falo
2. jogava / costumava jogar
3. [s]comei[/s] comi
4. [s]era[/s] estava doente
5. [s]construiam[/s] construíram , [s]era[/s] estava
6. [s]tem sido[/s] estava doente , mas agora [s]é[/s] está bom
7. tinha quebrado , não podia vir
8. estou lendo
9. trabalhava / estava trabalhando, estudava / estava estudando
10. comia / estava comendo
11. [s]se tinha encontrado[/s] estava deitado / tinha ficado deitado , dormi / adormeci
12. (tu) terás comido / vais ter comido ; (você) terá comido / vai ter comido
13. [s]quero ir[/s] quer que eu vá
14. compraria
15. [s]sou matado[/s] está batizado
16. [s]era matado[/s] foi batizado
17. [s]era destruido[/s] foi destruída
18. tinha / havia sido [s]matado[/s] batizado
19. terei sido [s]matado[/s] batizado / vou ter sido batizado
20. [s]pagou[/s] pagasse, [s]permaneceria[/s] ficaria
21. [s]teria construido[/s] teríamos construído , [s]tinha[/s] tivéssemos / houvéssemos tido

3. Comei doesn’t exist;
4. the verb here must be estar, not ser;
5. construíam is imperfect indicative, it must be the preterite indicative; also, estar, not ser;
6. tem sido is the compound preterite indicative of ser, but it must be the imperfect indicative of estar; also, estar, not ser;
11. encontrar = ‘to meet’, ‘to find’
12. worth remembering most Brazilians use vocêtu is bookish/literary, religious, or regional;
13. such constructions are literally built as ‘He wants that I go home now’ in Portuguese; quero is 1st person singular, quer is 3rd; is present subjunctive;
15. this is more like describing a fact than a true passive, so I’d use estar instead of ser; also, matar = ‘to kill’, while ‘to baptise’ = batizar;
16. era is imperfect indicative, but it must be the preterite indicative; also, matar = ‘to kill’, while ‘to baptise’ = batizar;
17. era is imperfect indicative, but it must be preterite indicative; also, cidade (‘city’) is feminine, so the past participle must agree with it and be feminine singular as well;
18 & 19. matar = ‘to kill’, while ‘to baptise’ = batizar;
20. pagou is preterite indicative, but it must be imperfect subjunctive; permanecer isn’t necessarily wrong, but sounds awkward here, so I changed it to ficar;
21. teria is 1st/3rd person singular, teríamos is 1st person plural; tinha is 1st/3rd person singular imperfect indicative, tivéssemos is 1st person plural imperfect subjunctive.

That’s probably it. Other native speakers may want to discuss some points or give their opinions as well.
português do Brasil (pt-BR)British English (en-GB) galego (gl) português (pt) •• العربية (ar) български (bg) Cymraeg (cy) Deutsch (de)  r n km.t (egy) español rioplatense (es-AR) 日本語 (ja) 한국어 (ko) lingua Latina (la) ••• Esperanto (eo) (grc) français (fr) (hi) magyar (hu) italiano (it) polski (pl) Türkçe (tr) 普通話 (zh-CN)

User avatar
Osias
Posts: 8305
Joined: 2007-09-09, 17:38
Real Name: Osias Junior
Gender: male
Location: Vitória
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: brazilian grammar questions

Postby Osias » 2007-09-23, 12:31

3. Comei doesn’t exist;


it does, on Bible:

"Comei da minha carne e bebei do meu sangue" or something. It's an archaic imperative form.
2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

User avatar
0stsee
Posts: 2493
Joined: 2006-10-12, 23:27
Real Name: MarK
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: brazilian grammar questions

Postby 0stsee » 2007-09-23, 15:23

osias wrote:
3. Comei doesn’t exist;


it does, on Bible:

"Comei da minha carne e bebei do meu sangue" or something. It's an archaic imperative form.

You must have also read Hosea, Ogiaçu. :wink:
Ini tandatanganku.

User avatar
Osias
Posts: 8305
Joined: 2007-09-09, 17:38
Real Name: Osias Junior
Gender: male
Location: Vitória
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: brazilian grammar questions

Postby Osias » 2007-09-23, 15:55

0stsee wrote:
osias wrote:
3. Comei doesn’t exist;


it does, on Bible:

"Comei da minha carne e bebei do meu sangue" or something. It's an archaic imperative form.

You must have also read Hosea,

why?


Ogiaçu


:shock:
2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

User avatar
Psi-Lord
Posts: 10087
Joined: 2002-08-18, 7:02
Real Name: Marcel Q.
Gender: male
Location: Cândido Mota
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: brazilian grammar questions

Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-09-23, 18:26

osias wrote:
3. Comei doesn’t exist;


it does, on Bible:

"Comei da minha carne e bebei do meu sangue" or something. It's an archaic imperative form.

Hah, sure. :lol: 2nd person plural affirmative imperative. I was thinking of the preterite and the imperfect forms only.
português do Brasil (pt-BR)British English (en-GB) galego (gl) português (pt) •• العربية (ar) български (bg) Cymraeg (cy) Deutsch (de)  r n km.t (egy) español rioplatense (es-AR) 日本語 (ja) 한국어 (ko) lingua Latina (la) ••• Esperanto (eo) (grc) français (fr) (hi) magyar (hu) italiano (it) polski (pl) Türkçe (tr) 普通話 (zh-CN)

kman1
Posts: 1028
Joined: 2005-10-04, 0:16
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby kman1 » 2007-10-17, 11:51

Hi Psi-lord, I have some questions for the corrections you gave me.

2. jogava / costumava jogar


2. what is the root verb of ‘costumava’ ? or is this a grammar pattern ( ‘costumava’ + verb = ‘used to …’ ) ?

4. era estava doente


4. ‘estar’ is used with adjectives not ‘ser’ right? When is ‘ser’ used then??

11. se tinha encontrado estava deitado / tinha ficado deitado , dormi / adormeci


11. a. what form is ‘estava deitado’ in? I thought the past participle was formed with (‘ter’ + ‘past participle of a verb’) I haven’t seen (‘estar’ + ‘past participle’) before. b. so ‘to be’ has three verbs ‘ser’, ‘estar’, and ‘ficar’? This is confusing… How do you know which one to use and when?? c. what’s the root verb for ‘adormeci’?

12. (tu) terás comido / vais ter comido ; (você) terá comido / vai ter comido


12. so another way that the future perfect tense can be expressed is by using the ( ‘present tense of “ir”’ + ‘ter’ + ‘past participle’ ) ??

15. sou matado está batizado


15. how is the passive tense formed? (‘ser’ + ‘past participle’) or (‘estar’ + ‘past participle’) it says here that the passive = (‘ser’ + ‘past participle’) …
http://www.geocities.com/email_theguy/n ... assive.htm
it seems like it can be formed with both ‘ser’ and ‘estar’ since you use ‘estar’ in #15 but you use ‘ser’ in #16… what’s the difference between the two? how do I know which one to use?

16. era matado foi batizado


16. shouldn’t that be ‘foste’ instead of ‘foi’ ?

18. tinha / havia sido matado batizado


18. so it could be ‘tinha sido batizado’ or ‘havia sido batizado’, right? but isn’t ‘havia sido batizado’ the older form which is never used in modern brazilian portugese?

Thanks

User avatar
Psi-Lord
Posts: 10087
Joined: 2002-08-18, 7:02
Real Name: Marcel Q.
Gender: male
Location: Cândido Mota
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Postby Psi-Lord » 2007-10-29, 12:50

Sometimes I have a… hmmm… personal, ‘peculiar’ style, so, if other native speakers disagree on something, please, do bring it up. :)

Note: I’m not very good at thinking of Portuguese verbs in terms of their roots, so instead I’ll just give you the infinitives and point out the possible irregular verbs.

kman1 wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:2. jogava / costumava jogar


2. what is the root verb of ‘costumava’ ? or is this a grammar pattern ( ‘costumava’ + verb = ‘used to …’ ) ?

As you probably know, sometimes the imperfect indicative suffices for conveying the ‘used to’ meaning. However, you can also used the verb costumar for that. It works in other tenses as well, conveying the idea of something that is habitual, that happens often, e.g.:

Costuma fazer calor nesta época do ano.
It is usually hot around this time of the year.

Costumar is etymologically derived from the noun costume.

kman1 wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:4. [s]era[/s] estava doente

4. ‘estar’ is used with adjectives not ‘ser’ right? When is ‘ser’ used then??

Actually, both can be used with adjectives. In this particular case, the difference lies on what’s probably the most basic distinction between ser and estar, with the former implying a more permanent, continuous situation, and the latter pointing to a more unstable, temporary state. In both sentences 4 and 5, you gave a time period during (part of) which the person was ill, so estar sounds better because of this conditionally limited state.

kman1 wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:11. [s]se tinha encontrado[/s] estava deitado / tinha ficado deitado , dormi / adormeci

11. a. what form is ‘estava deitado’ in? I thought the past participle was formed with (‘ter’ + ‘past participle of a verb’) I haven’t seen (‘estar’ + ‘past participle’) before. b. so ‘to be’ has three verbs ‘ser’, ‘estar’, and ‘ficar’? This is confusing… How do you know which one to use and when?? c. what’s the root verb for ‘adormeci’?

a. estava deitado is just estar + adjective here (or rather, deitado is the past participle of deitar working as an adjective in this case). Ter + past participle does form the present perfect / compound perfect indicative, but if you say tenho deitado, that means you’ve been laying yourself rather than lying (that is, it implies an action rather than a state).

b. Indeed, although probably never really taught as such, ficar is a (relatively common) third possibility for ‘to be’. It’s usually the most natural verb to use when giving the location for something, e.g.:

O banco fica na esquina.
The bank is on the corner.

You could also use ser in this example, but not estar (because that’d imply the bank is on the corner now, but will be somewhere else later).

Ficar is etymologically derived from Vulgar Latin figicare, frequentative of figere. It’s a regular verb in the group of those that end in -icar.

c. Its infinitive is adormecer, and it’s a verb on its own (that is, it isn’t formed from another verb – if comes from the Imperial Latin verb addormiscere). It’s a regular verb in the group of those that end in -ecer.

kman1 wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:12. (tu) terás comido / vais ter comido ; (você) terá comido / vai ter comido

12. so another way that the future perfect tense can be expressed is by using the ( ‘present tense of “ir”’ + ‘ter’ + ‘past participle’ ) ??

Yes. Nothing complicated about it, though – it’s just an extension of the fact that the future itself may be expressed by the present tense of ir + infinitive.

kman1 wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:15. [s]sou matado[/s] está batizado

15. how is the passive tense formed? (‘ser’ + ‘past participle’) or (‘estar’ + ‘past participle’) it says here that the passive = (‘ser’ + ‘past participle’) …
http://www.geocities.com/email_theguy/n ... assive.htm

The standard passive is indeed formed with ser + past participle. The reason why I chose to use estar + adjective (or better again, a past participle working as an adjective) is that present passives are probably unusual, so it sounded odd in such a short sentence with no context. If you do need it passive here, then yes, you can have:

15. You are baptized now. = Você agora é batizado.

Depending on the context again, a continuous passive is also possible (and might even sound more natural), though that can also be said about English after all.

Você agora está sendo batizado.
You are being baptised now.

kman1 wrote:it seems like it can be formed with both ‘ser’ and ‘estar’ since you use ‘estar’ in #15 but you use ‘ser’ in #16… what’s the difference between the two? how do I know which one to use?

Psi-Lord wrote:16. [s]era matado[/s] foi batizado

I guess I only used ser here because, being in a non-present tense, it sounded better as a passive. There’s a little catch when departing from the English version, though:

16. You were baptized for 5 min.

If by that you mean being baptised lasted for 5 minutes, then sure, the passive works just fine; if, on the other hand, it means the person was considered baptised for 5 minutes, and then he was no longer so, then it’d be better translated by estar + adjective.

Você esteve batizado por 5 min.

But I’m probably overanalysing way beyond what you want anyway.

kman1 wrote:16. shouldn’t that be ‘foste’ instead of ‘foi’ ?

If you’re addressing the person as tu, then yes, it must be foste; if you’re addressing them as você instead, then it’s foi.

kman1 wrote:
Psi-Lord wrote:18. tinha / havia sido [s]matado[/s] batizado

18. so it could be ‘tinha sido batizado’ or ‘havia sido batizado’, right? but isn’t ‘havia sido batizado’ the older form which is never used in modern brazilian portugese?

Using haver for the compound tenses is indeed an older form when compared to using ter, and that in both Brazil and Portugal. In the perfect indicative, ter replaced it completely; in the pluperfect indicative, however, although ter is definitely used more often, haver is still found, especially in more formal contexts, in the written language, and in some fixed expressions. I guess using haver in the pluperfect is even more common in Brazil than in Portugal.
português do Brasil (pt-BR)British English (en-GB) galego (gl) português (pt) •• العربية (ar) български (bg) Cymraeg (cy) Deutsch (de)  r n km.t (egy) español rioplatense (es-AR) 日本語 (ja) 한국어 (ko) lingua Latina (la) ••• Esperanto (eo) (grc) français (fr) (hi) magyar (hu) italiano (it) polski (pl) Türkçe (tr) 普通話 (zh-CN)

kman1
Posts: 1028
Joined: 2005-10-04, 0:16
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Journal

Postby kman1 » 2014-03-16, 14:37

3/15/14

Como vai, os amigos! Tenho começado estudar o Português muito novamente. Realmente, tenho umas provas no Português. São dumas várias diferentes coisas no Português. Também, tenho outra coisa vos perguntar de datilografar no Português. Vocês sabeis como escrever o acento circunflexo enquanto datilografar no Português? Mas gostaria poder o datilografar sem ter que usar o código combinação “Ctrl + Shift + 6”. Me presume que poder datilografar o acento circunflexo sem usar esse específico código combinação. Obrigado se pode ajudar.

Primeiro, começamos ao começo mas talvez mais tarde. Por favor, me diga se tem alguns equíovos em que tenho escrito. Obrigado.

No Inglês:
Hey everyone! I have started to study Portuguese alot again. Actually, I have some tests in Portuguese. The tests are about a lot of different things in Portuguese. Also, I have something else to ask you about typing in Portuguese. Do you know how to write the circumflex while typing in Portuguese? I would like to be able to type it without having to use the key combination "Ctrl + Shift + 6". I am supposed to be able to type the circumflex without using that particular key combination. Thank you if you can help.

First, let's start from the beginning but maybe later. Please let me know if you see any errors in what I have written.

Rivaldo
Posts: 281
Joined: 2008-07-07, 16:29
Real Name: Rivaldo José
Gender: male
Location: Minas
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)

Re: brazilian grammar questions

Postby Rivaldo » 2014-03-24, 1:35

Como vão vocês, os amigos?! Tenho começado a estudar Português novamente. Realmente, tenho de admitir, possuo algumas dúvidas de Português. São sobre várias coisas diferentes. Também, tenho outra coisa a vos perguntar sobre datilografar(digitar) em Português. Vocês sabem como posso fazer para escrever o acento circunflexo enquanto se datilografa(digita) em Português? Mas, na verdade, gostaria de poder datilografar(digitar) sem ter que usar a combinação de teclas “Ctrl + Shift + 6”. Presumo que se possa datilografar(digitar) o acento circunflexo sem ter de usar essa combinação específica. Agradeço se puderem ajudar.

Primeiro, começamos pelo começo. Por favor, me digam se há equívocos no que escrevi. Obrigado.

In brazillian keyboard you type shift + a specific key for ~ and ^. I don't know in english keyboard though.

User avatar
Osias
Posts: 8305
Joined: 2007-09-09, 17:38
Real Name: Osias Junior
Gender: male
Location: Vitória
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: Journal

Postby Osias » 2014-03-29, 13:51

Desculpa aí a demora, tenho acessado pouco este fórum.

kman1 wrote:3/15/14

Como vão, amigos! Tenho começado estudar muito o Português novamente. Na realidade, tenho umas provas de Português. São sobre várias coisas diferentes em Português. Também, tenho outra coisa pra lhes perguntar sobre digitar no Português. Vocês sabem como escrever o acento circunflexo ao digitar em Português? Eu gostaria de poder digitar sem ter que usar a combinação de teclas “Ctrl + Shift + 6”. Suponho que possa digitar o acento circunflexo sem usar essa combinação específica. Obrigado se puderem ajudar.

Primeiro, começamos do começo mas talvez mais tarde[later what?]. Por favor, me digam se tem algum equívoco no que escrevi. Obrigado.


"datilografar" só vale pra aquelas máquinas usadas no neolítico que eram chamadas por Luis de Camões de "máquinas de datilografar". Em computadores se diz "digitar".
2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.


Return to “Portuguese (Português)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest