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[Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

Posted: 2004-09-11, 22:44
by Kyr
EDITED BY THE MODERATOR:

If you have any question regarding Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian, this the right thread for you. Ask anything and we will try to give you a satisfying answer.

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Hello, I join the club too :D

I have a question: are the personal pronouns (like ja, ti, on etc) really necessary, as in English? meaning, you could say "sam" for "I am" or it must be "ja sam" always?

Posted: 2004-09-11, 23:22
by kibo
Kyr wrote:I have a question: are the personal pronouns (like ja, ti, on etc) really necessary, as in English? meaning, you could say "sam" for "I am" or it must be "ja sam" always?


Good question! No, unlike in English, German or French, in Serbian it's possible (and even necessary) to leave out the pronoun. But not always. For the short form of the verb "to be" in these examples it's necessary (I can't say "Sam Bojan", I have to say "Ja sam Bojan";). There will be cases where leaving out the pronoun is possible.

As for the negative form "nisam", the pronoun can be omitted in all cases. (You can say both "ja nisam Bojan" and "nisam Bojan")

:)

灰鹰(Gray Eagle) wrote:More exercises please


They'll come with the next lesson. :)

Posted: 2004-09-11, 23:58
by Nukalurk
Bugi, do you know why "j" is used instead of "й"?

Posted: 2004-09-12, 8:43
by Vlacko
Amikeco wrote:Bugi, do you know why "j" is used instead of "й"?


й is a russian letter. It's pronounced same as j in Serbian, the difference is just in look. Vuk Karadzic the founder of modern Serbian language took j from latin alphabet not from russian one. That's why.

Posted: 2004-09-12, 9:02
by Nukalurk
Vlacko, I know that they are pronounced the same, but why took he a Latin letter, when it doesn't correspond to the rest of the letters? Or was it before the modern Russian script has developed?

Posted: 2004-09-12, 10:40
by kibo
Amikeco wrote:Vlacko, I know that they are pronounced the same, but why took he a Latin letter, when it doesn't correspond to the rest of the letters? Or was it before the modern Russian script has developed?


What do you mean it doesn't correspond? I find it much more elegant to use j instead of й. But of course, I'm biased. :P

Before Vuk's reform й was used in the official language (which was a mixture of Russian and Church-Slavonic). It's interesting that before Vuk, another serbian linguist, Savo Mrkalj, tried to make a reform of the serbian language in 1810. His alphabet consiste out of 29 characters: he didn't џ (he probably used дж) and he had ль, нь, ть, дь (he said that these letters should be replaced with monographs later) and he used ї for today's j. His reform didn't succeed.

Vuk continued Sava's work, and perfected his alphabet in 1818. He made љ and њ out of ль and нь, he took ћ (instead of ть) from some medieval serbian manuscripts, џ from the old romanian alphabet, ђ (instead of ть) was made by Lukijan Mušicki (an episcope/bishop of the serbian orthodox church), and finally ј was taken from the latin alphabet.

This letter cause a lot of trouble for Vuk's reform attempt, because the orthodox church didn't want to accept it, because it came from the latin alphabet, which is associated catholicim. (Though was not the only objection). In 1968, four years after Vuk's death, his reform was finally accepted, and his alphabet is what we use now. :)

Posted: 2004-09-12, 10:43
by Nukalurk
This is interesting, Bugi. :)

I'm just not used to seeing Latin letters in Cyrillic script, though I knew that Serbian uses "j" beforehand. That's why I asked. ;)

Posted: 2004-09-12, 10:48
by Luís
Don't forget Russian uses letters for ja, je, jo and ju (Я Е Ё Ю) and Serbian doesn't. In fact, I'm not sure, but I think й doesn't ever appear at the beginning of a word in Russian and that it's only used as the second element of a diphthong. So, I think that the Serbian choice of using j is rather wise :) - Writing Йа for Jа or Йе for Je looks less elegant to me ;)

Posted: 2004-09-12, 10:54
by dando
I don't understand.
Where is Latin alphabet used and where the Cyrillic one? Which one shall I use definitely?

Posted: 2004-09-12, 10:54
by Nukalurk
Yes, Й at the beginning of a sentence looks strange, that's right. :wink:

Posted: 2004-09-12, 10:56
by Nukalurk
dando, both are official. You can choose which you like best. ;)

Posted: 2004-09-12, 11:27
by Vlacko
Vuk didn't use й cause he wanted to break up with old Church Slavonic- Russian school which didn't applied for a Serbian people.

Posted: 2004-09-12, 11:31
by Vlacko
Luís wrote:fact, I'm not sure, but I think й doesn't ever appear at the beginning of a word in Russian and that it's only used as the second element of a diphthong.


You're wrong Luis. There are some words in Russian which starts with й.

E.G. : Йoг- Yoga, Йод- Iodine, Йотa- Greek letter.

That's are I think almost all words that begin with Й.

Posted: 2004-09-12, 11:32
by Vlacko
Yes but official letter in Serbia is cyrillic, but you can use both.

Posted: 2004-09-12, 13:24
by Nukalurk
Vlacko wrote:Vuk didn't use й cause he wanted to break up with old Church Slavonic- Russian school which didn't applied for a Serbian people.


Bugi had said that the Church had problems with it and not, as you stated, that he did it in order to upset them.

Posted: 2004-09-12, 13:29
by Nukalurk
Vlacko wrote:
Luís wrote:fact, I'm not sure, but I think й doesn't ever appear at the beginning of a word in Russian and that it's only used as the second element of a diphthong.


You're wrong Luis. There are some words in Russian which starts with й.

E.G. : Йoг- Yoga, Йод- Iodine, Йотa- Greek letter.

That's are I think almost all words that begin with Й.


I found йеменец and йогурт, but these are all loan words.

Posted: 2004-09-12, 13:58
by Kyr
I never understood why there isn't a Ι letter in these cyrillic systems (since they are derived mostly by greek-byzantine script).

Posted: 2004-09-12, 14:50
by 灰鹰(Gray Eagle)
Kyr wrote:I never understood why there isn't a Ι letter in these cyrillic systems (since they are derived mostly by greek-byzantine script).


I is present in Bielorussian, Ukrainian and before 1918 in Russian.

Posted: 2004-09-13, 9:03
by kibo
Strigo wrote:Bugi, would you post here a little vocabulary, please?

I'd like to have this nouns in Serbian.


Sure. :D You didn't specify what script, so I'll do them in both. ;)

doctor = доктор, лекар [doktor, lekar]
architect = архитекта [arhitekta]
journalist = новинар [novinar]
priest = свештеник [sveštenik]
lawyer = адвокат [advokat]
teacher = учитељ [učitelj]
flower = цвет [cvet]
dog = пас [pas]
cat = мачка [mačka]

BTW, The next lesson will be ready later today. :oops:

Posted: 2004-09-13, 22:48
by Strigo
doctor = доктор, лекар [doktor, lekar]
architect = архитекта [arhitekta]
journalist = новинар [novinar]
priest = свештеник [sveštenik]
lawyer = адвокат [advokat]
teacher = учитељ [učitelj]
flower = цвет [cvet]
dog = пас [pas]
cat = мачка [mačka]

I want to study Serbian with the Cyrillic alphabet. :)

Here are some sentences created by myself :

Он није доктоп, он није цвет!
Ја сам адвокат и оно је пас.
Ти ниси учитељ, ти си новинар.
Ми нисмо овде, ми смо тампо, у школи : ми смо учитељ
Ви сте пријатељи и ви нисте у школи, ви сте напољу.
Мачка и пас : они нису пријатељи.

Are they correct?