[Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian] Discussion Group

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kibo
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Postby kibo » 2004-09-27, 10:52

Giraffa wrote:č, ž, š, dž, št, žd, r and c have become hard in modern Russian (and in modern Serbian :) - I know that now), but they used to be soft earlier and have kept some of the properties of soft consonants


Exactly. ;)

Giraffa wrote:Rr though is another case. If it can only be hard in Serbian... It means that some R-s have become hard while previously they were soft... :roll:


yeah, the plural of цар (emperor) is цареви (emperors), but for пар (pair) and дар (gift) it's парови (pairs) and дарови (gifts).


Giraffa wrote: :?: Does -ev- come after them only in some cases in serbian? Could you think of the exceptions?


For the nominative plural (which we have only learnt so far) no, since there aren't many examples of nouns which both end in soft and used-to-be-soft consonants and have a stem broadening (the only such example which is an exception is vožd - voždovi), but sinse the o -> e alternation also happens in other cases, like the instrumental singular you have loads of exceptions and double forms. One rule is that if before used-to-be-soft consonants is an e, e cannot follow. Though all my grammars aren't very explicit on whether e must go after the soft consonants (j, lj, nj, ć and đ) or not... :?
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Postby Giraffa » 2004-09-27, 11:12

oh, I give in... :oops: Let's just learn by heart those things... The language is not so regular... :wink:

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Postby Maja » 2004-09-27, 13:38

I'm sorry for jumping in. :oops:
Those of you who are learning Serbian, please skip my message! :wink:
This is for Giraffa and Bugi. :wink:


Giraffa wrote:Rr though is another case. If it can only be hard in Serbian... It means that some R-s have become hard while previously they were soft... :roll:

:?: Does -ev- come after them only in some cases in serbian? Could you think of the exceptions?
Srpski is so interesting!!!!!! :D


I don't know Serbian rules, but I've re-throught how it is in Slovene. If a word finishes on R, its personal adjective is created by adding -jev-; similar as in Serbian, yes? :wink:
mlínar (miller) - mlinarjev
čevljár (shoemaker) - čevljarjev

I've also found some examples: Peter - Petrov, pater - patrov, magister - magistrov, Pír (Pyrrhus) - Pirova zmaga (a Pyrrhic victory), but these words/names are loaned.

Could be the same case in Serbian as well? I think yes.
Maja

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kibo
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Postby kibo » 2004-09-27, 19:11

Maja wrote:I'm sorry for jumping in. :oops:
Those of you who are learning Serbian, please skip my message! :wink:
This is for Giraffa and Bugi. :wink:


Giraffa wrote:Rr though is another case. If it can only be hard in Serbian... It means that some R-s have become hard while previously they were soft... :roll:

:?: Does -ev- come after them only in some cases in serbian? Could you think of the exceptions?
Srpski is so interesting!!!!!! :D


I don't know Serbian rules, but I've re-throught how it is in Slovene. If a word finishes on R, its personal adjective is created by adding -jev-; similar as in Serbian, yes? :wink:
mlínar (miller) - mlinarjev
čevljár (shoemaker) - čevljarjev

I've also found some examples: Peter - Petrov, pater - patrov, magister - magistrov, Pír (Pyrrhus) - Pirova zmaga (a Pyrrhic victory), but these words/names are loaned.

Could be the same case in Serbian as well? I think yes.


Hmm... for the possessive adjective of the word 'mlinar' both forms are allowed (mlinarov and mlinarev). I know that for the words 'mesar' (butcher) and 'ribar' (fisher), the double forms of the instumental singular are allowed (mesarom-mesarem, ribarom-ribarem), though I couldn't swear if the possessive adjectiv is a double form as well... :shock: (though I would rather say mesarov/ribarov than mesarev/ribarev ;))

As for Petrov/magistrov/Pirov, it's the same case in Serbian too. ;)
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Postby FNORD » 2004-09-29, 23:23

Hey, can someone tell me where I can find a Serbian-English or Serbian-Portuguese dictionary on the Internet?

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2004-09-30, 3:03

FNORD wrote:Hey, can someone tell me where I can find a Serbian-English or Serbian-Portuguese dictionary on the Internet?

This is the closest I ever got to one —http://www.krstarica.com/dictionary/english-serbian/. Bugi might happen to know better ones, though.
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Postby Strigo » 2004-09-30, 11:19

Bugi, now we can see Serbian is pretty irregular with plurals, that's OK.
(At least is easier than German or Romanian)

What other kind of irregularities does it have? What about verbs and cases?
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Postby FNORD » 2004-09-30, 20:16

Psi-Lord wrote:
FNORD wrote:Hey, can someone tell me where I can find a Serbian-English or Serbian-Portuguese dictionary on the Internet?

This is the closest I ever got to one —http://www.krstarica.com/dictionary/english-serbian/.

Thank you, anyway.

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2004-12-19, 6:06

Буги,

are you thinking of reopening the thread? :wink: :D

In the meantime, a question —are town names treated under a single gender in Serbian (let's say, all masculine) or do they really depend on the general gender endings (e.g. consonant for masculine, for feminine etc.)? I believe it'd be the latter, so:

Лондрина
Идем у Лондрину.
Сам у Лондрини.


But is that correct?
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Postby kibo » 2004-12-20, 17:22

Psi-Lord wrote:Буги,

are you thinking of reopening the thread? :wink: :D


Можда, можда... ко зна..
Talvez, talvez... quem sabe...
:P

Psi-Lord wrote:In the meantime, a question —are town names treated under a single gender in Serbian (let's say, all masculine) or do they really depend on the general gender endings (e.g. consonant for masculine, for feminine etc.)?


I believe somebody already asked me that. And yes, the names of towns in Serbia can be of any gender, and the same rules apply to them as with all other nouns.

Београд is masculine, Подгорица is feminine and my home town Панчево is neuter. Some towns in Serbia can even be in plural, for instance - Сремски Карловци.. It also goes for foreign names. Берлин and Париз are m., Москва and Хавана are f., but I can't really think of any foreign tows that are neuter. Most foreign towns that end in -o and -e are considered masculine (like Рио де Жанеиро ;)).

Psi-Lord wrote:Сам у Лондрини.


One thing though. The sentence in Serbian can never begine with the short form of the present tense of the verb to be (sam, si, je, smo, ste, su). So, either:
Ја сам у Лондрини.
or
У Лондрини сам.

Congrats on the perfecty used cases in both phrases. :D
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Postby Nukalurk » 2005-01-17, 22:48

Psi, when you start a sentence, you need the long form => Jesam.
_

Hey, I just sent my first email in Serbian. :D (Now I should pray that she'll understand it. :lol: )

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Postby Nukalurk » 2005-01-21, 8:44

Bugi or Vlacko, I have again a question about the "х": Is it a plain "h" like the normal English one or is it more like the "h" in "hot"?

I always speak the "х" like the Russian one although I try not to do it. That might be because I know the Russian sounds much longer and since I normally write in Cyrillic letters, I see the "х" and not an "h". :?

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Postby kibo » 2005-01-21, 12:25

Amikeco wrote:Bugi or Vlacko, I have again a question about the "х": Is it a plain "h" like the normal English one or is it more like the "h" in "hot"?

I always speak the "х" like the Russian one although I try not to do it. That might be because I know the Russian sounds much longer and since I normally write in Cyrillic letters, I see the "х" and not an "h". :?


It's [h], and definitely not [x] (although serbian grammars claim the opposite.)
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Postby Nukalurk » 2005-01-21, 19:12

I have another question: When do you use овде and when ту?

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Postby kibo » 2005-01-23, 12:45

Amikeco wrote:I have another question: When do you use овде and when ту?


овде is used for places that are close to the speaker (1st person - ја, ми) and ту for places close to the the the person that we are speaking to (2nd person - ти, ви)... in english both would be translated as here, since germanic languages dont have 3 adverbial categories, but only 2. Some romance languages have this: Spanish (aquí, ahí, allí) and Portuguese (aqui, , ali), etc.
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Postby leppie » 2005-01-23, 12:59

Bugi wrote:
Amikeco wrote:I have another question: When do you use овде and when ту?


овде is used for places that are close to the speaker (1st person - ја, ми) and ту for places close to the the the person that we are speaking to (2nd person - ти, ви)... in english both would be translated as here, since germanic languages dont have 3 adverbial categories, but only 2. Some romance languages have this: Spanish (aquí, ahí, allí) and Portuguese (aqui, , ali), etc.

Italian had (has) them too: costí (and codesto).
Now it's used just in tuscany.
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allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby Nukalurk » 2005-01-23, 18:43

Many thanks! :o

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Postby Brazilian dude » 2005-02-02, 19:30

Здраво! Ja сам Brazilian dude. Живим у Бразилљи (и?)
I have been following and studying the threads and Serbian doesn’t seem hard at all for me to follow, since I have studied other Slavic languages (Russian, Polish, Czech, and Macedonian). Of all those four languages, I think it has a striking resemblance to Macedonian, and having learned it has helped me a lot to understand Serbian.

One question though. When you mentioned plurals with broadening that add evi or ovi, I thought of Macedonian, which has the same thing when the nouns is monosyllabic. Could that as well be the case in Serbian? All the examples I have seen with ovi or evi were of monosyllabic words, so I was wondering.

Anyway, the course is great and I’m enjoying it a lot. I’d just like to know where to place the stress in Serbian (apparently it’s not so regular like Macedonian, Czech, and Polish, closer to Russian in this aspect).

Brazilian dude

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Postby kibo » 2005-02-02, 20:37

Здраво и добро дошао, Brazilian dude! :D

Brazilian dude wrote:Живим у Бразилљи (и?)


Живим у Бразилу.

Бразил is a masculine noun, and in this case the preposition у must go with locative. The locative singular ending for masculine nouns ending in a consonant is . ;)

Brazilian dude wrote: Of all those four languages, I think it has a striking resemblance to Macedonian, and having learned it has helped me a lot to understand Serbian.


I'm glad that somebody else is interested in macedonian. (I'm trying to learn it too. :))

Brazilian dude wrote:One question though. When you mentioned plurals with broadening that add evi or ovi, I thought of Macedonian, which has the same thing when the nouns is monosyllabic. Could that as well be the case in Serbian? All the examples I have seen with ovi or evi were of monosyllabic words, so I was wondering.


Well, yes, -ov-/-ev- broadening does affect mostly monosyllabic words, while mostly words with more than one syllable haven't got this characteristics - you just ad -i. Though this is NOT a rule. There are many examples of monosyllabic words that don't have a broadening (pas -> psi, reč -> reči, konj -> konji), and there are a few examples of words with more than 1 syllable taking the -ov-/-ev- infix.

- some of them are those that have dual forms:

* lišaj -> lišajevi / lišaji (lichen)
* gavran -> gavranovi / gavrani (raven)
* mehur -> mehurovi / mehuri(bubble)

- some of them are compound nouns, made out of a monosyllabic word which broadens and a prefix:

* međusprat -> međuspratovi (mezzanine) - sprat -> spratovi (floor in serbian)
* međukat -> međukatovi (mezzanine) - kat -> katovi (floor in croatian)
* mikrofilm -> mikrofilmovi (microfilm) - film -> filmovi
* podšef -> podšefovi (assistant director; literally 'vice-boss') - šef -> šefovi (boss, chief)
* polukrug -> polukrugovi (semicircle) - krug -> krugovi (circle)

- and finnally I have found two words that are monosyllabic, but don't directly fit into the above classification:
* feribot -> feribotovi (ferryboat) - but this is a foreign word, (even though in english it is a compound word, in serbian it's not, neither bot nor feri mean anything.) and I guess feriboti would sound a bit weird. :?
* mozak -> mozgovi (brain) - this is a noun that has two phonologic alternations: 1) the a has disappered 2) and that caused the assimilation of consonants (voiceless k had to change into voiced g, because it was behind a voiced consonant ;)). But even if the nominative singular has two syllables, the grammatical stem of the word "mozak" is "mozg-", which has only one syllable. So it could be treated as a monosyllabic word. :)

Brazilian dude wrote: I’d just like to know where to place the stress in Serbian (apparently it’s not so regular like Macedonian, Czech, and Polish, closer to Russian in this aspect).


The stress can fall on any syllable, except for the last one. I'm afraid there are no rules, but at least it doesn't affect the pronunciation so drasticly as in russian. :P

Once again, welcome, thanks for joining and good luck ! :D
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Postby Brazilian dude » 2005-02-02, 20:47

I was surprised to see Serbian прозор instead of окно, which you normally find in Slavic languages. But again the Serbian word is similar to Macedonian прозорец. I'd be interested in knowing the origin of both words. Any contributions from our etymologists?

Brazilian dude


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