Dutch vs. Frisian

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Gormur
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Dutch vs. Frisian

Postby Gormur » 2005-05-21, 0:42

Dutch vs. Frisian

What is the difference, and is Frisian a seperate language or a mere dialect of Dutch? I know I'm going to start a war with this one... :P

I'm just curious as to the differences, since I am not familiar enough to notice them.

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Postby Nukalurk » 2005-05-21, 6:53

You could also say that Dutch is just a dialect of Low German. ;)

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Re: Dutch vs. Frisian

Postby nickybol » 2005-05-21, 17:02

Gormur wrote:Dutch vs. Frisian

What is the difference, and is Frisian a seperate language or a mere dialect of Dutch? I know I'm going to start a war with this one... :P

I'm just curious as to the differences, since I am not familiar enough to notice them.

It`s a seperate language, but they are very similair. You could say I dialect, because I think they have the same grammar. But in schools it`s taught as a seperate language. So I would say a seperate language.

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Postby JackFrost » 2005-05-22, 0:45

Well, they're different language. ;)

English can be related closer to Frisian than Dutch. Actually, Frisian is the closest related language you can find. :mrgreen:
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Postby reflexsilver86 » 2005-05-22, 1:10

Frisian is indeed it's own language.

Flemish, on the other hand, despite what the Flemish want to say, is pretty much a dialect of Dutch closely related to the Dutch spoken in the province of Noord-Brabant. They can communicate to each other, though there's noticeable differences and some key word changes.

I think maybe you were thinking of Flemish when you said you'd be afraid to start a war, because Frisian is undoubtedly it's own separate language. The Flemish-Dutch debate, though, does get some people heated up. :wink:
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Postby frany71 » 2005-05-22, 12:42

[quote="reflexsilver86"]Frisian is indeed it's own language.

Flemish, on the other hand, despite what the Flemish want to say, is pretty much a dialect of Dutch closely related to the Dutch spoken in the province of Noord-Brabant. They can communicate to each other, though there's noticeable differences and some key word changes.


I don't want to kindle the flame of this debate "Flemish-Dutch" because it would last for ages, but in my honest opinion your statement is semplistic and it doesn't take into account a number of historical, sociological and linguistic factors. What about the origins of the Dutch language? What about the meaning of dialect? If you speak of the existence of a dialect only because there are some noticeable differences in syntax and phonetics, how would you call some variation of British English in the United Kingdom or of German within German-speaking countries? Would you say that Austrian German is a dialect of German?

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Postby Guest » 2005-05-22, 16:07

No guys...

I wasn't talking about Flemish; just about Frisian. I have seen plenty of Frisian debates...and this is what confuses me...

Dialects:

North Frisian
East Frisian
West Frisian

Each 'dialect' of Frisian is different and has its own unique sound system, right? E.g. I've heard that North Frisian is highly influenced by Low German and Danish, West Frisian by Dutch (and English), and East Frisian claims to be the most 'pure' form of the original language, as it's spoken in rural districts and is more isolated from outside influences. The problem is that I've heard some people refer to West Frisian as a dialect of Dutch, since so many words are now borrowed from Dutch. To further complicate matters, older speakers (50+) use a different vocabulary (less Dutch) than the younger generations, who now use many Dutch and English words. Perhaps there is no simple answer to this question...

Thanks,

Gorm

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Postby frany71 » 2005-05-22, 19:27

Anonymous wrote:No guys...

I wasn't talking about Flemish; just about Frisian. I have seen plenty of Frisian debates...and this is what confuses me...

Dialects:

North Frisian
East Frisian
West Frisian

Each 'dialect' of Frisian is different and has its own unique sound system, right? E.g. I've heard that North Frisian is highly influenced by Low German and Danish, West Frisian by Dutch (and English), and East Frisian claims to be the most 'pure' form of the original language, as it's spoken in rural districts and is more isolated from outside influences. The problem is that I've heard some people refer to West Frisian as a dialect of Dutch, since so many words are now borrowed from Dutch. To further complicate matters, older speakers (50+) use a different vocabulary (less Dutch) than the younger generations, who now use many Dutch and English words. Perhaps there is no simple answer to this question...


All you heard is right. One thing is clear, every regional language is strongly influenced by the main language spoken in that specific country. It's normal that Frisian (as spoken in Friesland) has been influenced by Dutch and people use more Dutch words when they speak Frisian. This makes the difference between the different variants of Frisian, I suppose. Another example, Catalan spoken in Spain is a bit different from Catalan spoken in a limited part of Sardinia (Italy) because of the influences of the Italian language and Sardinian as well.
But you're right, maybe there is no simple answer to this question...

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Postby Leviwosc » 2005-05-25, 11:49

West-Frisian is definitely a language and not a dialect. Frisian already existed before Dutch appeared. West-Frisian has been influenced by Dutch of course because Dutch became the dominant language in the Netherlands.

West and East-Frisian are pretty similar, though North-Frisian has been influenced by Danish and is really different from West and East-Frisian.

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Postby dorenda » 2005-05-25, 18:28

So West-Frisian is what they speak in Friesland? Then what do they speak in West-Friesland (in North Holland)? (just wondering)

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Postby Leviwosc » 2005-05-28, 10:28

One speaks West-Frisian in the Dutch province Fryslân.

There's no Frisian spoken in North-Holland, they speak Dutch.

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Postby Guest » 2005-06-23, 20:45

=>There's no Frisian spoken in North-Holland, they speak Dutch <=

No,not really...

Image

As you will see number 5 is a transition area between North hollandish and (west)Frisian,both are spoken there.

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Postby Guest » 2005-06-23, 20:46

1) Zuid-Hollands
2) Kennemerlands
3) WaterlandsWaterländisch
4) Zaans
5) West-Fries- Noord-Hollands
6) Utrechts-Alblasserwaards
7) Zeeuws
8) Westhoeks
9) West-Vlaams en Zeeuws-Vlaams
10) Dialecten van het gebied tussen West- en Oost-Vlaams
11) Oost-Vlaams
12) Dialect van het gebied tussen Oost-Vlaams en Brabants
13) Zuid-Gelders
14) Noord-Brabants en Noord-Limburgs 15) Brabants
16) Dialect van het gebied tussen Brabants en Limburgs
17) Limburgs
18) Veluws
19) Gelders-Overijssels
20) Twents-Graafschaps
21) Twents
22) Stellingswerfs
23) Zuid-Drents
24) Midden-Drents
25) Kollumerlands
26) Gronings en Noord-Drents
27) Fries (Fries hoort hier eigenlijk niet bij. Het heeft de status van een eigen taal)
28) Bildts, Stads-Fries, Midlands, Amelands

You see,ron?

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Postby Gormur » 2005-08-01, 22:03

Interesting. :)

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Postby Leviwosc » 2005-08-08, 11:38

I would like to see a source for that 'Gast' (I'm so glad guest postings aren't allowed anymore)

Btw. The islands Texel and Vlieland are marked with the number 5. The island Vlieland belongs to the province Fryslân. Actually the islands Vlieland, Terschelling, Ameland and Schermonnikoog belongs to the province Fryslân.

Texel belongs to Noord-Holland and the tiny islands Rottumerplaat and rottermeroog belongs to the province Groningen.

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Sander

Postby Sander » 2005-08-17, 23:18

Ron de Leeuw, Cave Canem wrote:I would like to see a source for that 'Gast' (I'm so glad guest postings aren't allowed anymore)

Btw. The islands Texel and Vlieland are marked with the number 5. The island Vlieland belongs to the province Fryslân. Actually the islands Vlieland, Terschelling, Ameland and Schermonnikoog belongs to the province Fryslân.

Texel belongs to Noord-Holland and the tiny islands Rottumerplaat and rottermeroog belongs to the province Groningen.

Ron.


Yes,but it hasn't been so long ago that the province of Noord Holland was the owner of the 'waddeneilanden' that now belong to the province of Friesland.Also remind yourselves that the numbers do not represent ownership but dialectal areas. :)


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