IpseDixit - Nederlands

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IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-04-28, 14:18

Hi everyone. Yesterday I started studying Dutch and I have a question:

1) When do I have to use zijn instead of hebben as auxiliary in periphrastic forms like the present perfect and pluperfect?

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby linguoboy » 2015-04-28, 17:20

IpseDixit wrote:Hi everyone. Yesterday I started studying Dutch and I have a question:

1) When do I have to use zijn instead of hebben as auxiliary in periphrastic forms like the present perfect and pluperfect?

http://www.dutchgrammar.com/en/?n=Verbs.Au04
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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-04-28, 17:36

Yep, I found it after I had posted. Thanks anyway.

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby linguoboy » 2015-04-28, 17:48

IpseDixit wrote:Yep, I found it after I had posted. Thanks anyway.

This is by far the best English-language site I've found for Dutch grammar. If a question can't be answered there, it's probably something you need to ask a fluent speaker about.
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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby Aurinĭa » 2015-04-28, 17:56

And even then... :P The problem with fluent native speakers is that they don't always know the rules. "It sounds better." "That's just how it is." I've been in either situation many times. But don't let that deter you from asking questions. Often we are able to answer a question. :wink:

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby linguoboy » 2015-04-28, 18:01

Aurinĭa wrote:And even then... :P The problem with fluent native speakers is that they don't always know the rules. "It sounds better." "That's just how it is." I've been in either situation many times. But don't let that deter you from asking questions. Often we are able to answer a question. :wink:

That site does a better job of laying out the rules than most fluent speakers (native or otherwise) could do. But obviously there isn't room to cover ever case, so if you want to know whether something is correct or not and can't find a rule covering it there, your best bet is to ask someone here. Y'all may not be able explain why, but at least you can give us a judgment one way or the other. Thanks for being willing to do that.
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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-04-30, 14:36

New questions:

2) Can someone explain to me how to use ervan?

3) Is het also the impersonal pronoun like English "it"?

4) How informal are 'k, 'r, d'r, 't, z'n and other such abbreviations?

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby Dutchess » 2015-05-10, 14:15

I'm not sure I'm the best person to answers these questions, but I'll give it a shot! Sorry in advance for any mistakes I might make.

IpseDixit wrote:2) Can someone explain to me how to use ervan?


Ervan is usually pointing at something. For example:

Person 1: Wat vind je van italiaans eten?
What do you think of Italian food?

Person 2: Ik hou ervan!
I love it! (ervan is pointing to the subject of Italian food)

Another example:

Person 1: Weet iemand waar ik goede Nederlandse muziek kan vinden?
Does anyone know where I can find good Dutch music?

Person 2: Heb je al op YouTube gekeken? Als je maar op "Nederlandse muziek" zoekt dan vind je heel veel ervan.
Have you looked on YouTube? If you just search for "Dutch music" then you'll find a lot of it. (again, pointing to the subject (music))

IpseDixit wrote:
3) Is het also the impersonal pronoun like English "it"?


Ik weet het niet
I don't know [it]

IpseDixit wrote:
4) How informal are 'k, 'r, d'r, 't, z'n and other such abbreviations?


Pretty informal. You'll hear them often in spoken language, but in "proper" written language (as in a book or school paper) they are usually considered too informal to use.

Hope that helps! :)
Any and all corrections welcome. Thanks!

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby Muisje » 2015-05-10, 17:01

IpseDixit wrote:3) Is het also the impersonal pronoun like English "it"?
Ja.
Het regent - It is raining
Dutchess' example is a good one too, 'het' cannot be left out there, unlike in English. (Except informal spoken language, in which case it can turn into something like 'kweenie' :P )

IpseDixit wrote:4) How informal are 'k, 'r, d'r, 't, z'n and other such abbreviations?
Common in informal spoken language, and even in formal spoken language the vowel often is a schwa (not pronouncing it at all is not done though in formal language). As for written language, I see them in fiction sometimes to represent spoken language, but then it honestly feels a bit old-fashioned to me.. Not the pronunciation it implies, that is fine, but actually writing it like that. That might be just me though. Also they're common in things like text messages, but without the apostrophe, people can't be bothered with that on a phone. :P

As for 'ervan', I don't have time to answer that right now (as I expected which is why I started with the other questions), but you might find this page useful: http://www.dutchgrammar.com/en/?n=Pronouns.Ps09 If you have questions about it after reading that, can you make it a bit more specific maybe? The question of 'how to use the word ervan' is quite a broad topic. :wink:
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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-05-25, 14:57

Thanks!

---

How do I say "I want you to do that" in Dutch?

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby Saim » 2015-05-25, 15:01

Ik wil dat je dat doet, denk ik.

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-05-25, 15:11

Saim wrote:Ik wil dat je dat doet, denk ik.


Dank je. Dat was mijn twijfel. Ik wist niet als ik moest gebruiken een structuur met de infinitief alsof en Engels of een met een bijzin.

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby Muisje » 2015-05-27, 13:00

Saim wrote:Ik wil dat je dat doet, denk ik.

Ja klopt :)

IpseDixit wrote:Dank je. Dat was mijn twijfel. Ik wist niet of ik moest gebruiken* een structuur met de infinitief zoals in het Engels of een met een bijzin.

* Met 'of' begin je een bijzin, met de werkwoorden 'aan het eind'. Waar dat 'eind' precies is, is in een lange zin als deze alleen niet zo duidelijk. :P Er zijn drie plekken waar je ze neer kunt zetten:

'Of' begins a subordinate clause, with all the verbs 'at the end'. Where exactly that 'end' is is not so clear with a long sentence like this one, though :P There are three places you can put them:

Ik wist niet of ik een structuur met de infinitief moest gebruiken zoals in het Engels of een met een bijzin.
Ik wist niet of ik een structuur met de infinitief zoals in het Engels moest gebruiken of een met een bijzin.
Ik wist niet of ik een structuur met de infinitief zoals in het Engels of een met een bijzin moest gebruiken.

Welke je neemt maakt niet zo veel uit. Ik vind zelf de eerste het mooiste klinken, maar ze zijn alledrie prima, het is maar net wat je zelf makkelijker vindt :) Dit is een behoorlijk ingewikkelde bijzin, ik zou me er nog niet al te druk over maken als ik jou was.

It doesn't really matter which one you choose. I like the first one the best, but all three are fine, just go with what is easiest for you :) This clause is quite complicated, I wouldn't worry about it too much yet if I were you.
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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-05-27, 13:22

Dank je! :)

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby Aurinĭa » 2015-05-27, 14:21

Muisje wrote:Ik wist niet of ik een structuur met de infinitief moest gebruiken zoals in het Engels of een met een bijzin.
Ik wist niet of ik een structuur met de infinitief zoals in het Engels moest gebruiken of een met een bijzin.
Ik wist niet of ik een structuur met de infinitief zoals in het Engels of een met een bijzin moest gebruiken.

Ik ben het ermee eens dat de eerste structuur het beste klinkt, maar ik zou, in alledrie de gevallen, zoals in het Engels tussen komma's zetten. De zoals in het Engels geeft hier extra uitleg bij een structuur met de infinitief en heeft eigenlijk niets te maken met de rest van de zin.
Verder zou ik ook één schrijven om het lezen iets gemakkelijker te maken.

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-05-27, 14:33

English? :(

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby Muisje » 2015-05-27, 15:25

Aurinĭa wrote:Ik ben het ermee eens dat de eerste structuur het beste klinkt, maar ik zou, in alledrie de gevallen, zoals in het Engels tussen komma's zetten. De zoals in het Engels geeft hier extra uitleg bij een structuur met de infinitief en heeft eigenlijk niets te maken met de rest van de zin.
Verder zou ik ook één schrijven om het lezen iets gemakkelijker te maken.
Oh, ja, je hebt gelijk.
Wat dat 'één' betreft: ik heb dat heel lang altijd verbeterd tot ik erachter kwam dat het officieel niet hoeft.. Maar ik doe het zelf wel altijd ja, ik vind het heel raar zonder die streepjes, dan spreek ik het verkeerd uit in mijn hoofd. :P

@IpseDixit, this is what Aurinĭa wrote:
"I agree with the first sentence being the best, but I would put comma's around zoals in het Engels in all three cases. The zoals in het Engels is an extra explanation to een structuur met de infinitief and doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of the sentence.
In addition, I would write één to make the sentence easier to read."

I agree with her on both points :) So here's the final version:

Ik wist niet of ik een structuur met de infinitief moest gebruiken, zoals in het Engels, of één met een bijzin.
you either lose your fear
or spend your life
with one foot in the grave
over the rhine - spark

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-05-27, 16:23

Thanks

Muisje wrote:'Of' begins a subordinate clause, with all the verbs 'at the end'. Where exactly that 'end' is is not so clear with a long sentence like this one, though :P There are three places you can put them:


Always?

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby Muisje » 2015-05-27, 16:42

IpseDixit wrote:
Muisje wrote:'Of' begins a subordinate clause, with all the verbs 'at the end'. Where exactly that 'end' is is not so clear with a long sentence like this one, though :P There are three places you can put them:


Always?
Do you mean whether 'of' always starts a subordinate clause? In the meaning 'if/whether', yes. In the meaning 'or', no.
Or do you mean the places to put the verbs? That depends on the sentence. I think a general rule is that you can put them anywhere after the direct object, as long as it's between constituents. This sentence has a lot of constituents, therefore a lot of possible places for the verbs. I was wrong earlier actually, I just noticed there are four places you can put them:

Ik wist niet of ik een structuur moest gebruiken met de infinitief, zoals in het Engels, of één met een bijzin.

Just to make things even more complicated :whistle: This one seems a tiny bit harder to interpret somehow, though. Can't really figure out why. I still think the first of my original options is the best :)
you either lose your fear
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with one foot in the grave
over the rhine - spark

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Re: IpseDixit - Nederlands

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-05-27, 17:04

Muisje wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:
Muisje wrote:'Of' begins a subordinate clause, with all the verbs 'at the end'. Where exactly that 'end' is is not so clear with a long sentence like this one, though :P There are three places you can put them:


Always?
Do you mean whether 'of' always starts a subordinate clause? In the meaning 'if/whether', yes. In the meaning 'or', no.
Or do you mean the places to put the verbs? That depends on the sentence. I think a general rule is that you can put them anywhere after the direct object, as long as it's between constituents. This sentence has a lot of constituents, therefore a lot of possible places for the verbs. I was wrong earlier actually, I just noticed there are four places you can put them:

Ik wist niet of ik een structuur moest gebruiken met de infinitief, zoals in het Engels, of één met een bijzin.

Just to make things even more complicated :whistle: This one seems a tiny bit harder to interpret somehow, though. Can't really figure out why. I still think the first of my original options is the best :)


I meant the "of" but thanks for the other explanation too. Anyway as far as Dutch word order goes, this site helps me a lot:

http://www.dutchgrammar.com/en/?n=WordOrder.02


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