Question about pronunciation

Moderators: JackFrost, Marah

uzferry

Question about pronunciation

Postby uzferry » 2016-02-01, 22:17

Hi. So I am learning the nasalized vowels in French and I am already running into trouble with the word "bonjour". So I looked up how do natives pronounce it, here:

http://forvo.com/word/bonjour/#fr

and I noticed that 2nd and 3rd speakers sound very different to my ears (the "pimaude" and "fleurbleue")

to me, pimaude pronounces it like "bojour" (without any sound of "n" whatsoever), while fleuerblue clearly pronounces the "n" in "bon".

I asked a native speaker and she said these two pronunciations sound exactly the same to her, which I cannot believe.

So is my hearing playing tricks on me? What is the correct way of pronouncing "bonjour"?

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 17268
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-02-08, 20:19

I think they're both nasalized, but in the 2nd one, he's saying it pretty quickly, so the length of that nasalized vowel is shorter than in the 3rd one. That probably makes the nasalization harder to notice.

User avatar
Luís
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6925
Joined: 2002-07-12, 22:44
Location: Lisboa
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby Luís » 2016-02-09, 8:36

Well, you're not supposed to hear the "n", but I guess that's how it might sound to someone who's not used to nasal vowels.
/ɔ/ ≠ /ɔ̃/

bon /bɔ̃/ vs bonne /bɔn/

In this case you're hearing "bonjour" as "beau jour" :)
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

Hadronic
Posts: 77
Joined: 2013-05-19, 13:50
Gender: male
Location: New York City
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby Hadronic » 2016-02-15, 19:34

I agree, second speaker says "beau jour", not "bonjour".
(fr) native, (en) fluent, (he) advanced and actively learning, (de) (ja) used to be advanced but forgot a lot, (ar) good bases, (fa) wanna learn

User avatar
TheStrayCat
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2424
Joined: 2010-12-23, 11:49
Real Name: Max
Gender: male
Location: Evanston, IL
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby TheStrayCat » 2016-08-03, 10:43

Salut !

J'ai aussi une question sur la prononciation, mais je n'ai pas trouvé de fil pour la demander, donc je le ferai ici.

Est-ce que le fin "-ent", comme en "ils parlent", ne se prononcie jamais ?

Merci :)

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20378
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby linguoboy » 2016-08-03, 16:46

En français cadien et acadien, oui. Autrement--pour autant que je sache--non.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
TheStrayCat
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2424
Joined: 2010-12-23, 11:49
Real Name: Max
Gender: male
Location: Evanston, IL
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby TheStrayCat » 2016-08-03, 19:04

Est-ce qu'il y a une règle pour déterminer quand se doit prononcier en français standard ?

User avatar
Ser
Posts: 7401
Joined: 2008-08-14, 2:55
Real Name: Renato
Gender: male
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby Ser » 2016-08-03, 19:31

Si tu lis un poème, spécialement un poème vieux, où il faut prononcer le -ent pour garder la métrique...

    Qu'il soit dans ton repos, qu'il soit dans tes orages,
    Beau lac, et dans l'aspect de tes riants coteaux,
    Et dans ces noirs sapins, et dans ces rocs sauvages
    Qui pendent sur tes eaux!

    —« Le Lac » (fragment), Alphonse de Lamartine (1790-1869)

Dans le reste de ce poème, le dernier verse de chaque strophe a toujours six syllabes (Où tu l'as vis s'asseoir... Sur ses pieds adorés... Lissa tomber ses mots...). Dans cette strophe, ceci se peut achever seulement si l'on prononce le -ent de pendent: « qui pende-euh sur tez o ». (Et ouais, on le prononcerait comme « -euh ».)

Autrement on ne le prononce pas.

User avatar
TheStrayCat
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2424
Joined: 2010-12-23, 11:49
Real Name: Max
Gender: male
Location: Evanston, IL
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby TheStrayCat » 2016-08-06, 14:09

Okay, I'd better switch to English because I'm afraid my French is too limited yet to express myself. :)

So, as far as I understood, in verb forms with the -ent ending (pendent, lisent), this ending is always silent in Standard French (except in poetry when it's needed for the rhythm) and can sometimes be pronounced in non-standard varieties, like Cajun French. Is this right?

Also, what about other words in Standard French with the same ending? In président or client, for example, it is pronounced. Is the general rule that the ending is only silent in verb forms?

User avatar
JackFrost
Global Moderator
Posts: 16102
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby JackFrost » 2016-08-06, 19:17

TheStrayCat wrote:Okay, I'd better switch to English because I'm afraid my French is too limited yet to express myself. :)

So, as far as I understood, in verb forms with the -ent ending (pendent, lisent), this ending is always silent in Standard French (except in poetry when it's needed for the rhythm) and can sometimes be pronounced in non-standard varieties, like Cajun French. Is this right?

Also, what about other words in Standard French with the same ending? In président or client, for example, it is pronounced. Is the general rule that the ending is only silent in verb forms?

Yes. The standard 3rd-peson plural conjugation -ent (lisent, parlent, etc.) is a schwa, not a nasal vowel, and it's pretty much silent (French is pretty allergic to schwas... so). Yet, in poems, verses, songs, etc. may be pronounced to respect the rhythm. As for the other -ent endings (président, client, etc.), it's a nasal vowel and is always pronounced.

Serafín wrote:(Et ouais, on le prononcerait comme « -euh ».)

It'd be a sure sign that you're not a Canadian speaker... Only the French talk like that, so I'd be careful generalizing like that since it's just plain European/French centralism. :wink:
Neferuj paħujkij!

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 17268
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-01-31, 5:53

JackFrost wrote:
Serafín wrote:(Et ouais, on le prononcerait comme « -euh ».)

It'd be a sure sign that you're not a Canadian speaker... Only the French talk like that, so I'd be careful generalizing like that since it's just plain European/French centralism. :wink:

So then how do Canadians pronounce it in that context? What about French-speakers who are neither French nor Canadian?

User avatar
JackFrost
Global Moderator
Posts: 16102
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby JackFrost » 2017-02-03, 13:03

vijayjohn wrote:
JackFrost wrote:
Serafín wrote:(Et ouais, on le prononcerait comme « -euh ».)

It'd be a sure sign that you're not a Canadian speaker... Only the French talk like that, so I'd be careful generalizing like that since it's just plain European/French centralism. :wink:

So then how do Canadians pronounce it in that context? What about French-speakers who are neither French nor Canadian?

With /@/ and /ø/ being distinct basically. As far as I know, it's the French that tend to merge them. At least the northern ones. As for the others, only guessing here... they also keep them distinct too.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 4565
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby dEhiN » 2017-02-03, 14:57

JackFrost wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
JackFrost wrote:
Serafín wrote:(Et ouais, on le prononcerait comme « -euh ».)

It'd be a sure sign that you're not a Canadian speaker... Only the French talk like that, so I'd be careful generalizing like that since it's just plain European/French centralism. :wink:

So then how do Canadians pronounce it in that context? What about French-speakers who are neither French nor Canadian?

With /@/ and /ø/ being distinct basically. As far as I know, it's the French that tend to merge them. At least the northern ones. As for the others, only guessing here... they also keep them distinct too.

Tu as voulu dire que les français québécois disent le -ent à la fin d'un mot comme « pendent » avec le phonème /ø/ ? Moi, je le prononce avec le phonème /ɔ̃/, le même phonème dans la première syllable. Donc, je dis /pɔ̃dɔ̃/. Je suis un peu certain* que cette pronunciation est correcte dans le français parisien.

*Puis-je dire ça « un peu certain » pour la phrase d'anglais « fairly certain » ? Ou est-ce qu'il y a une meilleure traduction ? Merci d'avance.
My TAC for 2017.

N:(en-CA) | B2/B1:(fr) | B1:(pt-BR) | A2:(es-GT) | A1:(sv)(ta-LK)

User avatar
Dormouse559
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6090
Joined: 2010-05-30, 0:06
Real Name: Matthew
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-02-03, 20:29

dEhiN wrote:Tu voulais dire que les français Québécois francophones disent le -ent à la fin d'un mot comme « pendent » avec le phonème /ø/ ? Moi, je le prononce avec le phonème /ɔ̃/, le même phonème dans la première syllable. Donc, je dis /pɔ̃dɔ̃/. Je suis un peu assez certain* que cette pronunciation est correcte dans le français parisien.

*Puis-je (« [Est-ce que] je peux » est plus commun) dire ça « un peu certain » pour la phrase d'anglaise « fairly certain » ? Ou est-ce qu'il y a une meilleure traduction ? Merci d'avance.
Tu confonds deux mots. Il y a « pendant » ("during" or pres. part. or pendre), qui se prononce /pɑ̃dɑ̃/ en français de France. Et il y a « pendent » (3pl of pendre) qui se prononce /pɑ̃d/ dans l'Hexagone.

Il est possible dans certains contextes de prononcer la terminaison de « pendent » (et de tous les verbes à la troisième personne du pluriel). Par convention, on transcrit sa prononciation avec /ə/ (par ex. /pɑ̃də/). Mais en France, /ə/ et /ø/ ne sont plus distingués. On dit seulement /ø/ (/pɑ̃dø/). Au Québec on les distingue toujours.
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

User avatar
JackFrost
Global Moderator
Posts: 16102
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby JackFrost » 2017-02-04, 1:31

Bien, Dormouse a bien répondu à tes questions. :D Juste une note : c'est plutôt soigné de toujours prononcer les terminaisons verbales "-ent". Pas juste au Québec... au Canada français... en France... mais partout dans la francophonie.
Neferuj paħujkij!

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 17268
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Question about pronunciation

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-02-04, 20:52

Merci, Jack !


Return to “French (Français)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest