Viridzen- Français

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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby JackFrost » 2014-07-06, 0:47

Viridzen wrote:it's a bit closer to [ʉ], though, maybe even exactly that, like how "move" can be anywhere from [mʉˑv] to [myˑv] (the vowel length also changes). Would this sound suffice in place of [y]? I'm afraid it would get confused with [œ].

Beats me. I'd think of it as [u], but I'd have to hear it first.

I don't see how you would get it confused with [œ]. Maybe with [ø] instead. Again, still vital to keep the those three rounded vowels distinct.

Yiddish has [ʀ], as well as French, but I hate hate hate this sound! The trill, [r], is a little hard, and my best choice is [ɾ], which I can only do between vowels. I can only do [r] after a consonant and before a vowel. My only other choice would be to use my precious [ɹ] and yell at whomever makes fun of me. That is, if I ever talk to people in French at all.

Traditionally and currently, [ɾ] is not very common in the language, I'm afraid to say. I'd just use the [r] if you really prefer to avoid using the uvular r's and tell the speakers that you just don't like them.
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby Viridzen » 2014-07-06, 1:49

JackFrost wrote:
Viridzen wrote:it's a bit closer to [ʉ], though, maybe even exactly that, like how "move" can be anywhere from [mʉˑv] to [myˑv] (the vowel length also changes). Would this sound suffice in place of [y]? I'm afraid it would get confused with [œ].

Beats me. I'd think of it as [u], but I'd have to hear it first.

It's really not [u]. I grew up elsewhere, so when my family moved down here, we were so confused, because our "u" was so different. We still make fun of it, but it's true that it's more [ʉˑ].

I don't see how you would get it confused with [œ]. Maybe with [ø] instead. Again, still vital to keep the those three rounded vowels distinct.

Oh goodness, now there's both [œ] and [ø], and I'll never be able to tell the difference when hearing... I've decided I'll just stick to reading and writing, but that should change one day.

Yiddish has [ʀ], as well as French, but I hate hate hate this sound! The trill, [r], is a little hard, and my best choice is [ɾ], which I can only do between vowels. I can only do [r] after a consonant and before a vowel. My only other choice would be to use my precious [ɹ] and yell at whomever makes fun of me. That is, if I ever talk to people in French at all.

Traditionally and currently, [ɾ] is not very common in the language, I'm afraid to say. I'd just use the [r] if you really prefer to avoid using the uvular r's and tell the speakers that you just don't like them.

Eh, I'll do my best. I hope they won't be too finicky when the day comes that I do go.
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby Viridzen » 2014-07-12, 15:24

I have a question: if I wanted to just say "I don't" as a sentence on its own, how would I? My dictionary says to just say "non". Is this correct?
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-07-12, 17:34

That seems about right. But do you have any context to give?
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby dEhiN » 2014-07-12, 18:52

Viridzen wrote:I have a question: if I wanted to just say "I don't" as a sentence on its own, how would I? My dictionary says to just say "non". Is this correct?

I used to think the same way as you; in English when we say things like "I don't" or "I will" - just use the auxiliary and not the main verb - the main verb is usually implied from context. Ex:

"Are you going to clean the house?" "Yeah don't worry, I will (clean the house)"
"Do you want some coffee?" "No, I don't (want some coffee)"

In French, since there are no auxiliary verbs, you have to use a verb fully conjugated. But you can use other things (like "le/la") in the sense of "it" to express the rest of the verbal clause.

"Est-ce que tu vas nettoyer la maison?" "Oui, je vais la nettoyer / Oui, je vais la faire" (I guess if you really want to add "don't worry", you could say "oui, ne t'inquiete [vous inquietez] pas, je vais la faire". You can also shorten the response to just say "oui, je vais", but in English that's the same as replying "yes, I'm going to".)

"Est-ce que tu veux du cafe?" "Non, je ne veux pas"

Does that help any? I found that I had to get used to figuring out which verb was being implied in English, and use that verb in my French phrase.

As your dictionary and Dormouse559 mentioned, you can just use single-word responses like "oui/non" as well: "Est-ce que tu veux du cafe?" "Non"; "Est-ce que tu va nettoyer la maison?" "Oui". But then we do the same in English as well.

So, just like in English you can respond multiple ways. However you can't use a construction with subject + auxiliary verb (with the main verb implied through context).
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby JackFrost » 2014-07-12, 19:29

Viridzen wrote:Oh goodness, now there's both [œ] and [ø], and I'll never be able to tell the difference when hearing... I've decided I'll just stick to reading and writing, but that should change one day.

Actually, those two aren't so bad thanks to the loi de position, which simply states that [œ] can only occur in closed syllables and [ø] generally in open ones. Even if you confuse both vowels, I don't think it would ever be a barrier to comprehension. For examples: peux vs peuvent [pø] vs [pœ:v], jeu vs jeune [ʒø] vs [ʒœn]. However, we have heureux vs heureuse [ørø] vs [ørø:z], jeune vs jeûne [ʒœn] vs [ʒøːn], so [ø] can occasionally appear in closed syllables, especially as for the feminine form of words ending with -eux like heureux-heureuse, moelleux-moelleuse, etc. (it's the only exception to the loi de position rule that I can think of).

So yeah, I should be clearer that you don't have to strictly keep those two rounded vowels distinct since there are very little minimal pairs between them.

dEhiN wrote:In French, since there are no auxiliary verbs, you have to use a verb fully conjugated. But you can use other things (like "le/la") in the sense of "it" to express the rest of the verbal clause.

French does have them: avoir and être. It's simply ungrammatical to use just an auxiliary verb by itself in French. That's all.

you have to use a verb fully conjugated.

Oui or non can suffice usually, so it's not essential to use a verb.

"Est-ce que tu veux du cafe?" "Non, je n'en veux pas"

I'd just say "oui(, merci)" or "non(, merci)" in that case. ^^;
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-12, 20:34

Viridzen wrote:But, I've also noticed that the sound occurs in the English accent around my area; it's a bit closer to [ʉ], though, maybe even exactly that, like how "move" can be anywhere from [mʉˑv] to [myˑv] (the vowel length also changes). Would this sound suffice in place of [y]?

IME with German, native speakers tend to hear [ʉː] as /yː/ rather than /uː/. I think it would work if you can manage something very close to a cardinal [u] for /u/. That is, the exact values aren't going to matter as much as maintaining a clear distinction between the two.
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby dEhiN » 2014-07-12, 20:36

Viridzen wrote:Oh goodness, now there's both [œ] and [ø], and I'll never be able to tell the difference when hearing... I've decided I'll just stick to reading and writing, but that should change one day.

I think you'll get used to them if you start listening to French radio/tv, or speak with a lot of natives. I can distinguish them, both in listening for and pronouncing, immediately based on the word and context. But, like any new sound in a target language that doesn't exist in your native language(s), you need exposure to it.

JackFrost wrote:Actually, those two aren't so bad thanks to the loi de position, which simply states that [œ] can only occur in closed syllables and [ø] generally in open ones. Even if you confuse both vowels, I don't think it would ever be a barrier to comprehension. For examples: peux vs peuvent [pø] vs [pœ:v], jeu vs jeune [ʒø] vs [ʒœn]. However, we have heureux vs heureuse [ørø] vs [ørø:z], jeune vs jeûne [ʒœn] vs [ʒøːn], so [ø] can occasionally appear in closed syllables, especially as for the feminine form of words ending with -eux like heureux-heureuse, moelleux-moelleuse, etc. (it's the only exception to the loi de position rule that I can think of).

I never knew there was a loi de position. Also, is jeûne the feminine form of jeune? Actually, now that I say them aloud ([ʒœn] vs [ʒøːn]), I remember hearing [ʒøːn], jeûne, once before. I guess I've never seen the spelling , so I just thought the masculine and feminine forms were spelled the same.

dEhiN wrote:In French, since there are no auxiliary verbs

French does have them: avoir and être. It's simply ungrammatical to use just an auxiliary verb by itself in French. That's all.

Oh yeah, avoir and être are used as auxiliaries! But only in a compound tenses like le passé composé, oui?

dEhiN wrote:you have to use a verb fully conjugated.

Oui or non can suffice usually, so it's not essential to use a verb.

Yeah I know you can :P I was trying to explain how, while in English you can use subject + auxiliary as a short form for subject + auxiliary + main verb, in French you cannot do that. You have to use subject + verb (or subject + auxiliary + verb in the case of compound tenses).

dEhiN wrote:"Est-ce que tu veux du cafe?" "Non, je n'en veux pas"

I'd just say "oui(, merci)" or "non(, merci)" in that case. ^^;

Again, I know oui/non will suffice :P. I'd probably say the same as well. But I used the full sentence for illustration. Though, thanks for the correction :). I'm still learning when to properly use en in that type of situation.

Also, JackFrost, while responding I realized something. In English, from a grammar point of view, I've learned the constructions like "I will go" (future), "I do have" (emphatic), etc. as subject + auxiliary/modal verb + main verb. So therefore I view will, do as auxiliaries attached onto the main verb.

In French, from a grammar pov, I've learned compound tenses like "j'ai parlé" (passé composé), "j'avais mangé" (plus-que-parfait) as subject + verb (in compound form). So, to me, ai parlé, avais mangé are the full verbs, albeit in a compound form, NOT auxiliary + main verb.
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby JackFrost » 2014-07-13, 1:23

dEhiN wrote:I never knew there was a loi de position. Also, is jeûne the feminine form of jeune? Actually, now that I say them aloud ([ʒœn] vs [ʒøːn]), I remember hearing [ʒøːn], jeûne, once before. I guess I've never seen the spelling , so I just thought the masculine and feminine forms were spelled the same.

No, jeûne means fast (as in, abstaining from eating), hence the circumflex so it wouldn't be read as jeune.

The loi de position also deals with e-ɛ and o-ɔ. If you want to know the basics: click here and scroll to section IX. ^^

And reading that, I just exactly remembered the small exception to the rule concerning [ø] in closed syllables: <eû> and before /z/.

Oh yeah, avoir and être are used as auxiliaries! But only in a compound tenses like le passé composé, oui?

Exactly.

Again, I know oui/non will suffice :P. I'd probably say the same as well. But I used the full sentence for illustration. Though, thanks for the correction :). I'm still learning when to properly use en in that type of situation.

And I'm just illustrating more for Viridzen to understand how to answer to such questions. ^^
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby Viridzen » 2014-07-13, 17:33

Dormouse559 wrote:That seems about right. But do you have any context to give?

Stuff like "Did you like the book?"-"I did(n't)". I actually want to know about how to render other "do"-constructions: what about as in "I think you didn't like it"-"But I did like it!"

JackFrost wrote:
Viridzen wrote:Oh goodness, now there's both [œ] and [ø], and I'll never be able to tell the difference when hearing... I've decided I'll just stick to reading and writing, but that should change one day.

Actually, those two aren't so bad thanks to the loi de position, which simply states that [œ] can only occur in closed syllables and [ø] generally in open ones. Even if you confuse both vowels, I don't think it would ever be a barrier to comprehension. For examples: peux vs peuvent [pø] vs [pœ:v], jeu vs jeune [ʒø] vs [ʒœn]. However, we have heureux vs heureuse [ørø] vs [ørø:z], jeune vs jeûne [ʒœn] vs [ʒøːn], so [ø] can occasionally appear in closed syllables, especially as for the feminine form of words ending with -eux like heureux-heureuse, moelleux-moelleuse, etc. (it's the only exception to the loi de position rule that I can think of).

So yeah, I should be clearer that you don't have to strictly keep those two rounded vowels distinct since there are very little minimal pairs between them.


It's just that I have no idea what the difference is at all between the two sounds.

I came across the sentence "Vous êtes devenu médecin" in my French book. I was a bit confused; why shouldn't it be "devenu un médecin"? Is there anywhere I should use "un[e]" and where I shouldn't?

Also, I'm just finishing up the lesson about the passé composé, and I'm wondering, do people always use it except for in formal writing? Or can you use it in formal writing, or the simple past in informal settings? I know Spanish isn't French, but they're very close, so I remember my Spanish teacher using the simple past with us in class, and she tended to use informal speech.

Also, in my signature I have put a message saying I would like others to correct my errors; does anybody know if the French one is correct? I used the Larousse online dictionary (most of my French dictionaries are Larousse) which said that, basically, what I needed was "corriger quelqu'un sur quelque chose" (I think), so now I'm wondering if I got it right.
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby JackFrost » 2014-07-13, 18:06

I came across the sentence "Vous êtes devenu médecin" in my French book. I was a bit confused; why shouldn't it be "devenu un médecin"? Is there anywhere I should use "un[e]" and where I shouldn't?

Nouns of profession simply doesn't require an article when you use devenir or être. Unless you use an adjective, then you'll need to use one. So: je suis médicin vs je suis un bon médicin, not *je suis bon médicin. Another example: je suis étudiant vs je suis un étudiant américain, not *je suis étudiant américain. Clear enough?

Also, I'm just finishing up the lesson about the passé composé, and I'm wondering, do people always use it except for in formal writing? Or can you use it in formal writing, or the simple past in informal settings? I know Spanish isn't French, but they're very close, so I remember my Spanish teacher using the simple past with us in class, and she tended to use informal speech.

We always use it as the simple past is pretty much only used in some literary works (novels, poems, etc.). If you use the simple past in speaking or writing, you'll easily come out as non-native or very posh. :wink: So in summary, unlike English and Spanish, French doesn't really visibly make the nuance between past actions that are complete (simple past) and past actions that are not complete and ongoing in the present (present perfect). Like, the simple past disappeared from spoken French since the 18th century and still stuck around in general writing until the early 20th century. It's been like that for ages, so.

Also, in my signature I have put a message saying I would like others to correct my errors; does anybody know if the French one is correct? I used the Larousse online dictionary (most of my French dictionaries are Larousse) which said that, basically, what I needed was "corriger quelqu'un sur quelque chose" (I think), so now I'm wondering if I got it right.

Yeah, you got it a bit wrong: "s'il vous plaît, corrigez mes erreurs". That's all.
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby melski » 2014-07-13, 18:16

Viridzen wrote: Stuff like "Did you like the book?"-"I did(n't)". I actually want to know about how to render other "do"-constructions: what about as in "I think you didn't like it"-"But I did like it!"


Did you like the book ? - I didn't = Est-ce que tu as aimé le livre ? Non (je n'ai pas aimé/il ne m'a pas plu)
"I think you didn't like it - But I did like it" = Je croyais que tu ne l'aimais pas (be careful with the tenses here !) - Mais je l'ai vraiment aimé/ Mais il m'a vraiment plu !
(NB since we don't have the like/love distinction in French, we rather use constructions such as "ce livre m'a plu")
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby Viridzen » 2014-07-13, 20:37

JackFrost wrote:Yeah, you got it a bit wrong: "s'il vous plaît, corrigez mes erreurs". That's all.

Alright, thanks--you know, you can't learn if you don't make mistakes.

melski wrote:
Viridzen wrote: Stuff like "Did you like the book?"-"I did(n't)". I actually want to know about how to render other "do"-constructions: what about as in "I think you didn't like it"-"But I did like it!"


Did you like the book ? - I didn't = Est-ce que tu as aimé le livre ? Non (je n'ai pas aimé/il ne m'a pas plu)
"I think you didn't like it - But I did like it" = Je croyais que tu ne l'aimais pas (be careful with the tenses here !) - Mais je l'ai vraiment aimé/ Mais il m'a vraiment plu !
(NB since we don't have the like/love distinction in French, we rather use constructions such as "ce livre m'a plu")

Is "ce livre m'a plu" a reversed construction, like the Spanish "me gusta"? Also, what is "plu" the past participle for? One more: Is that the subjunctive in that one sentence "Je croyais que tu ne l'aimais pas"? Can you explain why it's used there? I haven't got to the lesson on the subjunctive in my book yet.

In the book, there was the sentence "Nous n'avons ni éclairs, ni tartes." Would you have to stress both "ni", or how would it be stressed?

(Sorry for asking so many questions, I'm just very curious and it's sometimes hard to hold my tongue.)
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby dEhiN » 2014-07-13, 20:43

melski wrote:Est-ce que tu as aimé le livre ? Non (je n'ai pas aimé/il ne m'a pas plu)
"I think you didn't like it - But I did like it" = Je croyais que tu ne l'aimais pas (be careful with the tenses here !) - Mais je l'ai vraiment aimé/ Mais il m'a vraiment plu !
(NB since we don't have the like/love distinction in French, we rather use constructions such as "ce livre m'a plu")


Quelle verbe a le participe passé "plu", plaîsir? Aussi, dans quel temps est "croyais/aimais"? Je pense que c'est l'imparfait. Est-ce que c'est correct?
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-13, 20:54

dEhiN wrote:Quelle verbe a le participe passé "plu", plaîsir?

C'est plaire.
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-07-14, 21:13

dEhiN wrote:
melski wrote:Est-ce que tu as aimé le livre ? Non (je n'ai pas aimé/il ne m'a pas plu)
"I think you didn't like it - But I did like it" = Je croyais que tu ne l'aimais pas (be careful with the tenses here !) - Mais je l'ai vraiment aimé/ Mais il m'a vraiment plu !
(NB since we don't have the like/love distinction in French, we rather use constructions such as "ce livre m'a plu")


Quelle verbe a le participe passé "plu", plaîsir? Aussi, dans quel temps est "croyais/aimais"? Je pense que c'est l'imparfait. Est-ce que c'est correct?


Tu peux utiliser le dictionnaire http://www.wordreference.com/fren/plu pour cette sorte de questions.

Tu doix seulement insérer la forme verbale que tu veux consulter et wordreference te dira quel verbe et quel temps elle est.

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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby JackFrost » 2014-07-15, 0:48

melski wrote:(NB since we don't have the like/love distinction in French, we rather use constructions such as "ce livre m'a plu")

We don't? Not sure about you, but I think the distinction can be made by saying "aimer qqn/qqch" and "aimer bien qqn/qqch".

Not that there's anything wrong with suggesting "plaire", of course.

Viridzen wrote:Is "ce livre m'a plu" a reversed construction, like the Spanish "me gusta"?

Well yes, but English does the same thing in this case. The literal translation would be "this book pleases me".

One more: Is that the subjunctive in that one sentence "Je croyais que tu ne l'aimais pas"? Can you explain why it's used there? I haven't got to the lesson on the subjunctive in my book yet.

It's the imperfect and the declensions for it are -ais, -ait, -ions, -iez, and -aient.

In the book, there was the sentence "Nous n'avons ni éclairs, ni tartes." Would you have to stress both "ni", or how would it be stressed?

You don't really have to stress ni. Just éclairs and tartes and the rest are unstressed. Compared to English and Spanish, French doesn't depend on stress much and it's always on the last syllable of a group of words. Plus, the French stress is weak. Anyway, "nous n'avons ni éclairs, ni tartes" in IPA: [nu.za.vɔ̃ ni.e.klɛːr ni.tɑːrt]. The underlined parts are the stressed syllables.

(Sorry for asking so many questions, I'm just very curious and it's sometimes hard to hold my tongue.)

It's your thread, so you can ask as much as you want and we'll do our best to help you. :P
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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby Viridzen » 2014-07-19, 13:33

It's your thread, so you can ask as much as you want and we'll do our best to help you. :P

Why thank you, that's very relieving.

JackFrost wrote:It's the imperfect and the declensions for it is -ais, -ait, -ions, -iez, and -aient.

What does the imperfect do again?

My book barely explained the function of that pronoun "en", can someone help? It seems this stumps a lot of French learners.

Also, one more thing about using "do": If someone were to be the only French speaker in a crowd and needed to talk to someone in French since he was in an emergency and didn't know the words to use for it in any other language, and he were to say "Does anyone here speak French?" How would someone respond "I do" or "I don't" in French? Or this, which is a similar situation: If some one were to ask a few people "Did any of you...?", how would the person who did it say "I did" in French, since he has to stress the fact that it was him, rather than any of the others? Would it be "Je l'ai fait" or something?
Please, correct my errors. S'il vous plaît, corrigez mes erreurs.
C2: [flag=]en[/flag] B1: Focusing on: [flag=]fr[/flag] (A2), [flag=]got[/flag]

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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby Dormouse559 » 2014-07-19, 16:38

Viridzen wrote:What does the imperfect do again?
The imperfect does a lot of things.

1) It expresses habitual actions in the past. "Nous allions à la plage tous les jours" could be translated as "We used to go to the beach every day" "We would go to the beach every day" "We went to the beach every day".

2) It expresses ongoing actions in the past. "Je faisais mes devoirs quand quelqu'un a sonné" means "I was doing my homework when someone rang the doorbell."
Note how the passé composé (or the passé simple in literary contexts) is used for the interrupting action.

3) It is used for descriptions in the past. "Le ciel était bleu" means "The sky was blue".

4) In hypothetical expressions, it is often used in the phrase that follows "si". "Si j'avais assez d'argent, je visiterais la France." > "If I had enough money, I would visit France."
"Et si nous allions à la plage?" > "What if we went to the beach?" or "How about we go to the beach?"
Note how, in the first sentence of 4), the second phrase uses the conditional.

Viridzen wrote:My book barely explained the function of that pronoun "en", can someone help? It seems this stumps a lot of French learners.
"En" is a preposition. There is a pronoun "on". Which did you want more explanation of?

Viridzen wrote:Also, one more thing about using "do": If someone were to be the only French speaker in a crowd and needed to talk to someone in French since he was in an emergency and didn't know the words to use for it in any other language, and he were to say "Does anyone here speak French?" How would someone respond "I do" or "I don't" in French? Or this, which is a similar situation: If some one were to ask a few people "Did any of you...?", how would the person who did it say "I did" in French, since he has to stress the fact that it was him, rather than any of the others? Would it be "Je l'ai fait" or something?
To respond to the first question, you could just say "Moi", but you could also say "Je le parle/Je parle français" (negative response: "pas moi", "Je ne le parle pas/Je ne parle pas français). For the second question, "Je l'ai fait" works. If you want to emphasize the subject, "C'est moi qui l'ai fait".
Last edited by Dormouse559 on 2014-07-19, 18:30, edited 1 time in total.
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

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Re: Viridzen- Français

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-19, 17:22

Dormouse559 wrote:
Viridzen wrote:My book barely explained the function of that pronoun "en", can someone help? It seems this stumps a lot of French learners.
"En" is a preposition. There is a pronoun "on". Which did you want more explanation of?

I think he means the partitive pronoun en.
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