Biblical Hebrew Study Group

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-09-16, 21:13

That's a piece of advice I'll gladly (try to) take. :P

I kind of skimmed quickly over Lesson 5, but both the rules for Biblical Hebrew and the speed at which I've been introduced to new vocabulary in Modern Hebrew have been taking their toll on me, so I think I'll try reviewing the other lessons before jumping into the exercises for Lesson 5.

I think also part of the problem with Hebrew for me (i.e. part of the reason why it takes me a whole day to do all the exercises from a given chapter of either this book or Colloquial Hebrew) is that although it uses a script I'm familiar with, I'm not that familiar with it. The part I'm least familiar with is the vowel diacritics. I literally just realized that אָ is apparently pronounced [ɔ] in Tiberian vocalization. (I thought it was [ɑ] or something).

Maybe I should also practice adding holam vav after the vav instead of before.

So how would a letter like עֲ be pronounced with Tiberian vocalization? [ʕɔ]? [ʕɑ]? [ʕə]? [ʕa] (but not [ʕaː])? Or something else? And how on Earth are we supposed to guess that the plural of עָנָן is עֲנָנִים?

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby Ser » 2018-09-17, 1:34

vijayjohn wrote:That's a piece of advice I'll gladly (try to) take. :P

I kind of skimmed quickly over Lesson 5, but both the rules for Biblical Hebrew and the speed at which I've been introduced to new vocabulary in Modern Hebrew have been taking their toll on me, so I think I'll try reviewing the other lessons before jumping into the exercises for Lesson 5.

Yeah, I decided to do the same before continuing onto the Lesson 5 exercises as well before you posted this, for the same reason.

I think also part of the problem with Hebrew for me (i.e. part of the reason why it takes me a whole day to do all the exercises from a given chapter of either this book or Colloquial Hebrew) is that although it uses a script I'm familiar with, I'm not that familiar with it. The part I'm least familiar with is the vowel diacritics. I literally just realized that אָ is apparently pronounced [ɔ] in Tiberian vocalization. (I thought it was [ɑ] or something).

From what I've noticed from incidental transcriptions of Tiberian, kametz katon was [ɔ], but kametz gadol was either [ɑː] or [ɔː]. I was quite surprised to learn in the thread about pausal forms that kametz gadol can appear in closed syllables, but so it is. As Drink explained there, the two kametz sounds have different etymologies (and "it's best [...] to think of these two vowels as separate and completely unrelated"). In the lessons so far I also noticed the checked kametz gadol doesn't even need to be stressed: the plural of בַּ֫יִת ba´yiṯ [ˈbajiθ] is בָּֽתִּים bāttîm [bɑːtˈtiːm].

So how would a letter like עֲ be pronounced with Tiberian vocalization? [ʕɔ]? [ʕɑ]? [ʕə]? [ʕa] (but not [ʕaː])? Or something else?

Luciano Canepari at least was of the opinion that עֱ ʿĕ was [ʕɪ], עֲ ʿă was [ʕɐ] and עֳ ʿŏ was [ʕʊ], so basically coloured schwas. I've sometimes seen them described as "very short" [ɛ], [a], [ɔ].

And how on Earth are we supposed to guess that the plural of עָנָן is עֲנָנִים?

Lambdin has the unfortunate habit of mentioning something only once, but you can find this in section 6 in the initial Sounds and Spelling chapter. The gutturals (except /r/) aren't followed by an uncoloured schwa, so you typically have עֲ ʿă where you'd expect *עְ *ʿə.

Although now that I say this, I do remember the Answer Key for Lesson 2 has a schwa under the chet of חֲצֵרוֹת ḥăṣērôṯ, so I guess that's another mistake in the Answer Key and my original answer was right. :hmm:

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-09-18, 6:14

Thanks!

Going back over some of these exercises is making me realize that my mistakes have really been less grave than I thought they were. It seems most of them are just spelling mistakes or things like writing 'the city' instead of 'in the city'.

Of course, Drink is also right to point out that we shouldn't beat ourselves up for not getting all the rules down so early on. Also, I might be able to avoid some of these mistakes more easily if I stop trying to do all the exercises for a whole chapter in one day (same with Modern Hebrew).
Ser wrote:Man, there are typos in the Answer Key book...

That's odd, my Answer Key book doesn't seem to have any of the typos you mention in yours. It has exactly the same things you say it should have. :hmm:
I think the Answer Key is also wrong when in Unit 2 (e) it says "on the kings" and "on the elders" are עַל־מְלָכִים ʿal-məlāḵîm and עַל־זְקֵנִים ʿal-zəqēnîm, without the article. Vijay made the same mistake admittedly.

Wait, I did?? Where?

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby Ser » 2018-09-18, 15:32

vijayjohn wrote:
Ser wrote:Man, there are typos in the Answer Key book...

That's odd, my Answer Key book doesn't seem to have any of the typos you mention in yours. It has exactly the same things you say it should have. :hmm:

:hmm: Apparently I've been using a fan-made Answer Key, because it is not this one, which does not have the problems I've been mentioning. Oh well, now that I have a better Answer Key, I should be fine. :P

I think the Answer Key is also wrong when in Unit 2 (e) it says "on the kings" and "on the elders" are עַל־מְלָכִים ʿal-məlāḵîm and עַל־זְקֵנִים ʿal-zəqēnîm, without the article. Vijay made the same mistake admittedly.

Wait, I did?? Where?

Hmm, you're right. I would've sworn I saw you had עַל־מְלָכִים ʿal-məlāḵîm and עַל־זְקֵנִים ʿal-zəqēnîm in your answers, but you don't!

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby Drink » 2018-09-20, 22:11

Ser wrote:From what I've noticed from incidental transcriptions of Tiberian, kametz katon was [ɔ], but kametz gadol was either [ɑː] or [ɔː].

In the Tiberian pronunciation, the quality of the qamatz gadol was certainly [ɔ(ː)] (or rather it was certainly the same quality as the qamatz qatan). The actual length system of the Tiberian pronunciation is uncertain (some say length was no longer phonemic and depended on syllable openness, while others say the older Hebrew length system was retained). But the important thing to remember is not to focus too exclusively on the Tiberian pronunciation. There were other pronunciation traditions both at that time and that still survive today in which the qamatz gadol was certainly [aː] (not even [ɑː], since in many of them it later merged with the patach).

Ser wrote:In the lessons so far I also noticed the checked kametz gadol [in a closed syllable] doesn't even need to be stressed: the plural of בַּ֫יִת ba´yiṯ [ˈbajiθ] is בָּֽתִּים bāttîm [bɑːtˈtiːm].

So the word בתים is an interesting special case. I would not take it as a rule that qamatz gadol can occur in an unstressed closed syllable, since generally it cannot. Anyway, some say that בתים is actually not /baːtˈtiːm/, but rather /baːˈtiːm/ with a single /t/ and an unusual example of a lack of spirantization. There are other similarly unusual instances, such as שְׁתַּיִם, which could indicate any of /ʃətˈtajim/, /ʃəˈtajim/, or /ˈʃtajim/. However, in this case, the origin is more clear, since it most certainly a reduction of /ʃitˈtaj(i)m/, from even earlier /ʃintˈtaj(i)m/. Another example is the feminine singular second-person past tense after a guttural: שָׁכַחַתְּ, which seems to indicate /ʃaːˈxaħatt/, but really is most certainly /ʃaːˈxaħat/, which is /ʃaːˈxaħt/ with an epenthetic vowel, from earlier /ʃa(ː)ˈxaħti(ː)/. The preservation of the plosive /t/ might indicate that the final /-i(ː)/ was dropped from the feminine singular second-person past tense after the the spirantization was no longer productive, although there are other explanations as well.
שתה וגם גמליך אשקה

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-19, 7:18

Hmm, is anybody interested in getting this group going again?

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-19, 10:15

Hell yes, to both Hebrew groups.

But considering I just dropped out of two study groups, I'm not looking to rejoin either just yet. Hopefully soon though!

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-26, 2:54

Okay, so is anyone willing to get back into this group now? :P

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-26, 10:02

I can't speak for anyone else, but we've discussed it a length

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-26, 16:17

I know. :) I just wanted to know whether there was any chance of both groups being revived at this time.

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby Ser » 2018-12-04, 18:02

vijayjohn wrote:I know. :) I just wanted to know whether there was any chance of both groups being revived at this time.

I can get back into this game, sure.

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-12-04, 18:09

Oh, fuck. Sure. I need to do this soon enough anyway.

Are we sticking with Lambdin? I don't want to hold anyone back (and please, feel free to go ahead), but I could probably do one lesson a week. Or try too.

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-05, 4:50

So where (and I guess when) do we start? At this point, I think I'd need a really slow pace...I doubt there's much danger in holding me back.

EDIT: And yes, I'm assuming so far that we're sticking with Lambdin.

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-12-05, 9:09

How slow is "really slow"?

EDIT: After thinking about it, I think I'd love to go back through Biblical Hebrew by Kittel et al. If I'm outvoted in the group, I'm happy to do my own thing (whether here or in my personal thread), but I really like the approach and the size of the average lesson in that textbook. I can easily handle a lesson or two a week that way. (It'll mostly be review anyway.)

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-05, 13:37

Slow enough for me to read at least two stories in Modern Standard Arabic, do an exercise in Kurdish, finish translating a story in Turkish, watch one episode of one video series each in French and Spanish, review Modern Hebrew vocabulary, do however much Polish you're doing, help you with your German, maybe finish those goddamn readings for Coptic and Old English, and try to translate a short text into Cayuga with basically no dictionary (I have exactly one week left to do that!) all on top of doing one lesson from whatever we're using for Biblical Hebrew? :P

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby Ser » 2018-12-06, 8:29

Here are my answers for Lambdin, lesson 5:

► Show Spoiler


Exercise (a) was amusingly hard. I'm actually surprised it seems I didn't make any mistakes! After Drink mentioned I hadn't mentioned the interaction of the article with word stress, I went back and then noticed Lambdin did mention something about stress and the article. And so the algorithm for the special cases of article shape is basically this, in case it's useful for anyone:

► Show Spoiler


księżycowy wrote:How slow is "really slow"?

EDIT: After thinking about it, I think I'd love to go back through Biblical Hebrew by Kittel et al. If I'm outvoted in the group, I'm happy to do my own thing (whether here or in my personal thread), but I really like the approach and the size of the average lesson in that textbook. I can easily handle a lesson or two a week that way. (It'll mostly be review anyway.)

I'll try doing both Kittel and Lambdin.

I just did Kittel's lessons 1 and 2, and I must say his approach is a bit unusual and interesting. A lot of focus on parsing individual words it seems. Here are my answers for the lesson 2 assignment, which I noticed requires that you look up the verses (no accompanying vocab list is provided!):

► Show Spoiler


vijayjohn wrote:Slow enough for me to read at least two stories in Modern Standard Arabic, do an exercise in Kurdish, finish translating a story in Turkish, watch one episode of one video series each in French and Spanish, review Modern Hebrew vocabulary, do however much Polish you're doing, help you with your German, maybe finish those goddamn readings for Coptic and Old English, and try to translate a short text into Cayuga with basically no dictionary (I have exactly one week left to do that!) all on top of doing one lesson from whatever we're using for Biblical Hebrew? :P

You can do it, vijei-san!

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby Ser » 2018-12-17, 16:58

It looks like there's not enough interest in this group... I know Biblical Hebrew turned out to be harder than we originally expected, but c'mon. :(

I guess I'll switch to a thread of my own from now on. You guys overstretch yourselves too much with all these groups.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=56439

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-12-17, 17:17

Yeah, sorry Ser. I just have too much going on right now it seems. I do want to get back to my Hebrew studies, but I have to make sure I focus on what I need for my prospective PhD. studies.

Hopefully a bit down the line I'll be back to it. In the mean time, I'm glad you're continuing! :)

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-12-17, 17:24

Ohh, sorry, I totally forgot that you'd gotten this far in both books, Ser! :shock:

Hmm, I wonder...you could be right that I'm stretching myself way too thin, too. But I'm stubborn, so I'm going to give myself one more chance to catch up with you. :silly:

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Re: Biblical Hebrew Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-12-17, 17:31

Oh, Vijay.... :roll:


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