Biblical Hebrew Study Group

[vijayjohn]

That's a piece of advice I'll gladly (try to) take.

I kind of skimmed quickly over Lesson 5, but both the rules for Biblical Hebrew and the speed at which I've been introduced to new vocabulary in Modern Hebrew have been taking their toll on me, so I think I'll try reviewing the other lessons before jumping into the exercises for Lesson 5.

I think also part of the problem with Hebrew for me (i.e. part of the reason why it takes me a whole day to do all the exercises from a given chapter of either this book or Colloquial Hebrew) is that although it uses a script I'm familiar with, I'm not that familiar with it. The part I'm least familiar with is the vowel diacritics. I literally just realized that אָ is apparently pronounced [ɔ] in Tiberian vocalization. (I thought it was [ɑ] or something).

Maybe I should also practice adding holam vav after the vav instead of before.

So how would a letter like עֲ be pronounced with Tiberian vocalization? [ʕɔ]? [ʕɑ]? [ʕə]? [ʕa] (but not [ʕaː])? Or something else? And how on Earth are we supposed to guess that the plural of עָנָן is עֲנָנִים?

[Ser]

That's a piece of advice I'll gladly (try to) take.

I kind of skimmed quickly over Lesson 5, but both the rules for Biblical Hebrew and the speed at which I've been introduced to new vocabulary in Modern Hebrew have been taking their toll on me, so I think I'll try reviewing the other lessons before jumping into the exercises for Lesson 5.

Yeah, I decided to do the same before continuing onto the Lesson 5 exercises as well before you posted this, for the same reason.

I think also part of the problem with Hebrew for me (i.e. part of the reason why it takes me a whole day to do all the exercises from a given chapter of either this book or Colloquial Hebrew) is that although it uses a script I'm familiar with, I'm not that familiar with it. The part I'm least familiar with is the vowel diacritics. I literally just realized that אָ is apparently pronounced [ɔ] in Tiberian vocalization. (I thought it was [ɑ] or something).

From what I've noticed from incidental transcriptions of Tiberian, kametz katon was [ɔ], but kametz gadol was either [ɑː] or [ɔː]. I was quite surprised to learn in the thread about pausal forms that kametz gadol can appear in closed syllables, but so it is. As Drink explained there, the two kametz sounds have different etymologies (and "it's best [...] to think of these two vowels as separate and completely unrelated"). In the lessons so far I also noticed the checked kametz gadol doesn't even need to be stressed: the plural of בַּ֫יִת ba´yiṯ [ˈbajiθ] is בָּֽתִּים bāttîm [bɑːtˈtiːm].

So how would a letter like עֲ be pronounced with Tiberian vocalization? [ʕɔ]? [ʕɑ]? [ʕə]? [ʕa] (but not [ʕaː])? Or something else?

Luciano Canepari at least was of the opinion that עֱ ʿĕ was [ʕɪ], עֲ ʿă was [ʕɐ] and עֳ ʿŏ was [ʕʊ], so basically coloured schwas. I've sometimes seen them described as "very short" [ɛ], [a], [ɔ].

And how on Earth are we supposed to guess that the plural of עָנָן is עֲנָנִים?

Lambdin has the unfortunate habit of mentioning something only once, but you can find this in section 6 in the initial Sounds and Spelling chapter. The gutturals (except /r/) aren't followed by an uncoloured schwa, so you typically have עֲ ʿă where you'd expect *עְ *ʿə.

Although now that I say this, I do remember the Answer Key for Lesson 2 has a schwa under the chet of חֲצֵרוֹת ḥăṣērôṯ, so I guess that's another mistake in the Answer Key and my original answer was right.

[vijayjohn]

Thanks!

Going back over some of these exercises is making me realize that my mistakes have really been less grave than I thought they were. It seems most of them are just spelling mistakes or things like writing 'the city' instead of 'in the city'.

Of course, Drink is also right to point out that we shouldn't beat ourselves up for not getting all the rules down so early on. Also, I might be able to avoid some of these mistakes more easily if I stop trying to do all the exercises for a whole chapter in one day (same with Modern Hebrew).

Man, there are typos in the Answer Key book...

That's odd, my Answer Key book doesn't seem to have any of the typos you mention in yours. It has exactly the same things you say it should have.

I think the Answer Key is also wrong when in Unit 2 (e) it says "on the kings" and "on the elders" are עַל־מְלָכִים ʿal-məlāḵîm and עַל־זְקֵנִים ʿal-zəqēnîm, without the article. Vijay made the same mistake admittedly.

Wait, I did?? Where?

[Ser]

Man, there are typos in the Answer Key book...

That's odd, my Answer Key book doesn't seem to have any of the typos you mention in yours. It has exactly the same things you say it should have.

Apparently I've been using a fan-made Answer Key, because it is not this one, which does not have the problems I've been mentioning. Oh well, now that I have a better Answer Key, I should be fine.

I think the Answer Key is also wrong when in Unit 2 (e) it says "on the kings" and "on the elders" are עַל־מְלָכִים ʿal-məlāḵîm and עַל־זְקֵנִים ʿal-zəqēnîm, without the article. Vijay made the same mistake admittedly.

Wait, I did?? Where?

Hmm, you're right. I would've sworn I saw you had עַל־מְלָכִים ʿal-məlāḵîm and עַל־זְקֵנִים ʿal-zəqēnîm in your answers, but you don't!

[Drink]

From what I've noticed from incidental transcriptions of Tiberian, kametz katon was [ɔ], but kametz gadol was either [ɑː] or [ɔː].

In the Tiberian pronunciation, the quality of the qamatz gadol was certainly [ɔ(ː)] (or rather it was certainly the same quality as the qamatz qatan). The actual length system of the Tiberian pronunciation is uncertain (some say length was no longer phonemic and depended on syllable openness, while others say the older Hebrew length system was retained). But the important thing to remember is not to focus too exclusively on the Tiberian pronunciation. There were other pronunciation traditions both at that time and that still survive today in which the qamatz gadol was certainly [aː] (not even [ɑː], since in many of them it later merged with the patach).

In the lessons so far I also noticed the checked kametz gadol [in a closed syllable] doesn't even need to be stressed: the plural of בַּ֫יִת ba´yiṯ [ˈbajiθ] is בָּֽתִּים bāttîm [bɑːtˈtiːm].

So the word בתים is an interesting special case. I would not take it as a rule that qamatz gadol can occur in an unstressed closed syllable, since generally it cannot. Anyway, some say that בתים is actually not /baːtˈtiːm/, but rather /baːˈtiːm/ with a single /t/ and an unusual example of a lack of spirantization. There are other similarly unusual instances, such as שְׁתַּיִם, which could indicate any of /ʃətˈtajim/, /ʃəˈtajim/, or /ˈʃtajim/. However, in this case, the origin is more clear, since it most certainly a reduction of /ʃitˈtaj(i)m/, from even earlier /ʃintˈtaj(i)m/. Another example is the feminine singular second-person past tense after a guttural: שָׁכַחַתְּ, which seems to indicate /ʃaːˈxaħatt/, but really is most certainly /ʃaːˈxaħat/, which is /ʃaːˈxaħt/ with an epenthetic vowel, from earlier /ʃa(ː)ˈxaħti(ː)/. The preservation of the plosive /t/ might indicate that the final /-i(ː)/ was dropped from the feminine singular second-person past tense after the the spirantization was no longer productive, although there are other explanations as well.

[vijayjohn]

Hmm, is anybody interested in getting this group going again?

[księżycowy]

Hell yes, to both Hebrew groups.

But considering I just dropped out of two study groups, I'm not looking to rejoin either just yet. Hopefully soon though!

[vijayjohn]

Okay, so is anyone willing to get back into this group now?

[księżycowy]

I can't speak for anyone else, but we've discussed it a length

[vijayjohn]

I know. I just wanted to know whether there was any chance of both groups being revived at this time.

[Ser]

I know. I just wanted to know whether there was any chance of both groups being revived at this time.

I can get back into this game, sure.

[księżycowy]

Oh, fuck. Sure. I need to do this soon enough anyway.

Are we sticking with Lambdin? I don't want to hold anyone back (and please, feel free to go ahead), but I could probably do one lesson a week. Or try too.

[vijayjohn]

So where (and I guess when) do we start? At this point, I think I'd need a really slow pace...I doubt there's much danger in holding me back.

EDIT: And yes, I'm assuming so far that we're sticking with Lambdin.

[księżycowy]

How slow is "really slow"?

EDIT: After thinking about it, I think I'd love to go back through Biblical Hebrew by Kittel et al. If I'm outvoted in the group, I'm happy to do my own thing (whether here or in my personal thread), but I really like the approach and the size of the average lesson in that textbook. I can easily handle a lesson or two a week that way. (It'll mostly be review anyway.)

[vijayjohn]

Slow enough for me to read at least two stories in Modern Standard Arabic, do an exercise in Kurdish, finish translating a story in Turkish, watch one episode of one video series each in French and Spanish, review Modern Hebrew vocabulary, do however much Polish you're doing, help you with your German, maybe finish those goddamn readings for Coptic and Old English, and try to translate a short text into Cayuga with basically no dictionary (I have exactly one week left to do that!) all on top of doing one lesson from whatever we're using for Biblical Hebrew?

[Ser]

Here are my answers for Lambdin, lesson 5:

► Show Spoiler

LESSON 5

(a)
מְלָכִים, בִּמְלָכִים, בַּמְּלָכִים
məlāḵîm, bimlāḵîm, bamməlāḵîm
יְלָדִים, בִּילָדִים, בַּיְלָדִים
yəlāḏîm, bîlāḏîm, baylāḏîm
חֲדָרִים, בַּחֲדָרִים, בַּחֲדָרִים
ḥăḏārîm, baḥăḏārîm, baḥăḏārîm
עֲבָדִים, בַּעֲבָדִים, בָּעֲבָדִים
ʿăḇāḏîm, baʿăḇāḏîm, bāʿăḇāḏîm
דְּרָכִים, בִּדְרָכִים, בַּדְּרָכִים
dərāḵîm, biḏrāḵîm, baddərāḵîm
אֲדָמָה, בַּאֲדָמָה, בָּאֲדָמָה
ʾăḏāmāh, baʾăḏāmāh, bāʾăḏāmāh
עָרִים, בְּעָרִים, בֶּעָרִים
ʿārîm, bəʿārîm, beʿārîm
נְעָרִים, בִּנְעָרִים, בַּנְּעָרִים
nəʿārîm, binʿārîm, bannəʿārîm
אֳנִיָּה, בָּאֳנִיָּה, בָּאֳנִיָּה
ʾŏnîyāh, boʾŏnîyāh, bāʾŏnîyāh

(b)
1.
טוֹב מֵהַיֶּ֫לֶד
ṭôḇ mēhayye´leḏ
2.
גָּדוֹל מֵהַבַּ֫יִת
gāḏôl mēhabba´yiṯ
3.
גָּדוֹל מֵהַנָּהָר
gāḏôl mēhannāhār
4.
קָטֹנ מִשָּׂדֶה
qāṭōn miśśāḏeh
5.
רָשָׁע מֵהָאֲנָשִׁים
rāšāʿ mēhāʾănāšîm
6.
יָקָר מִזזָהָב
yāqār mizzāhāḇ
7.
יָשָׁר מֵהַמֶּ֫לֶךְ
yāšār mēhamme´leḵ

(c)
1.
הַיֶּ֫לֶד בַּשָּׂדֶה הַגָּדוֹל
hayye´leḏ baśśāḏeh haggāḏôl
הַיֶּ֫לֶד אֲשֶׁר בַּשָּׂדֶה הַגָּדוֹל
hayye´leḏ ʾăšer baśśāḏeh haggāḏôl
2.
הַדְּרָכִים בַּסֵּ֫פֶר
haddərāḵîm bassē´p̄er
הַדְּרָכִים אֲשֶׁר בַּסֵּ֫פֶר
haddərāḵîm ʾăšer bassē´p̄er
3.
הָאִשָּׁה עַל־הַדֶּ֫רֶךְ
hāʾiššāh ʿal-hadde´reḵ
הָאִשָּׁה אֲשֶׁר עַל־הַדֶּ֫רֶךְ
hāʾiššāh ʾăšer ʿal-hadde´reḵ
4.
הַזָּהָב בַּהֵיכָל
hazzāhāḇ bahêḵāl
הַזָּהָב אֲשֶׁר בַּהֵיכָל
hazzāhāḇ ʾăšer bahêḵāl
5.
הַכֶּ֫סֶף בַּבַּ֫יִת
hakke´sep̄ babba´yiṯ
הַכֶּ֫סֶף אֲשֶׁר בַּבַּ֫יִת
hakke´sep̄ ʾăšer babba´yiṯ

(d)
1. Wisdom is more precious than gold.
2. The work is too difficult for men.
3. The servants are more just than the kings.
4. David is very just.
5. He is giving wisdom to the king that is sitting on the throne.
6. The words in the book are bad.
7. Wisdom is better than money.
8. The men are just.
9. David and the men are inhabiting Jerusalem.
10. Who is more righteous than Samuel?
11. The advice is very bad.
12. Where are the just and the righteous?

(e)
1.
הַמֶּ֫לֶךְ נֹתֵנ אֶת־הַזָּהָב וְהַכֶּ֫סֶף לָאֲנָשִׁים אֲשֶׁר בַּהֵיכָל
hamme´leḵ nōṯēn ʾeṯ-hazzāhāḇ wəhakke´sep̄ lāʾănāšîm ʾăšer bahêḵāl
2.
יְקָרָה חָכְמָה מִכֶּ֫סֶף
yəqārāh ḥoḵmāh mikke´sep̄
3.
הַמַּלְאָכִים אֲשֶׁר בִּירוּשָׁלַםִ רְשָׁעִים מְאֹד
hammalʾāḵîm ʾăšer bîrûšālaim rəšāʿîm məʾōḏ
4.
שְׁמוּאֵל וְדָוִד יְשָׁרִים וְצַדִּיקִים
šəmûʾēl wə-ḏāwīḏ yəšārîm wə-ṣaddîqîm
5.
הָעֲבוֹדָה קָשָׁה מֵהַיֶּ֫לֶד
hāʿăḇôḏāh qāšāh mēhayye´leḏ
6.
גָּדוֹל הַשָּׂדֶה מֵהַגָּנ אֲשֶׁר אֵ֫צֶל הַבַּ֫יִת
gāḏôl haśśāḏeh mēhaggān ʾăšer ʾē´ṣel habba´yiṯ
7.
רָעִים הַשֹּׁפְטִים מֵהַמְּלָכִים
rāʿîm haššōp̄əṭîm mēhamməlāḵîm

Exercise (a) was amusingly hard. I'm actually surprised it seems I didn't make any mistakes! After Drink mentioned I hadn't mentioned the interaction of the article with word stress, I went back and then noticed Lambdin did mention something about stress and the article. And so the algorithm for the special cases of article shape is basically this, in case it's useful for anyone:

► Show Spoiler

if א alif or ר resh:
-> use הָ hā (e.g. הָאִישׁ hāʾîš 'the man', הָרְחוֹב hārəḥôḇ 'the street')
if ע ayin:
-- if word begins with unstressed עָ ʿā:
-----> הֶ he (e.g. הֶעָרִים heʿārîm 'the cities')
-- else:
-----> הָ hā (e.g. הָעִיר hāʿîr 'the city', הָעֲבָדִים hāʿăḇāḏîm 'the servants')
if ח chet:
-- if word begins with חָ ḥā (regardless of stress):
-----> הֶ he (e.g. הֶחָכָם heḥāḵām 'the wise man')
-- else:
-----> הַ ha (e.g. הַחֶ֫רֶב haḥe´reḇ 'the sword')
if ה h:
-- if word begins with unstressed הָ hā:
-----> הֶ he (e.g. הֶהָרִים hehārîm 'the mountains')
-- else:
-----> הַ ha (e.g. הַהֵיכָל hahêḵāl 'the palace/temple')
if word begins with יְ yə or prefix מְ mə-:
-- if word begins with יְה yəh or יְע yəʿ:
-----> use normal rules (e.g. הַיְּהוּדִים hayyəhûḏîm 'the Jews')
-- else:
-----> הַיְ hay or הַמְ ham (e.g. הַיְאֹר hayʾōr 'the river/Nile', הַמְרַגְּלִים hamraggəlîm 'the spies')

Exception: "the mountain" has the irregular form הָהָר hāhār and not the expected *hahār.

How slow is "really slow"?

EDIT: After thinking about it, I think I'd love to go back through Biblical Hebrew by Kittel et al. If I'm outvoted in the group, I'm happy to do my own thing (whether here or in my personal thread), but I really like the approach and the size of the average lesson in that textbook. I can easily handle a lesson or two a week that way. (It'll mostly be review anyway.)

I'll try doing both Kittel and Lambdin.

I just did Kittel's lessons 1 and 2, and I must say his approach is a bit unusual and interesting. A lot of focus on parsing individual words it seems. Here are my answers for the lesson 2 assignment, which I noticed requires that you look up the verses (no accompanying vocab list is provided!):

► Show Spoiler

1. and God said to him
2. and God said to Moses and Aaron
3. and Moses said to Aaron
4. and a king said

Slow enough for me to read at least two stories in Modern Standard Arabic, do an exercise in Kurdish, finish translating a story in Turkish, watch one episode of one video series each in French and Spanish, review Modern Hebrew vocabulary, do however much Polish you're doing, help you with your German, maybe finish those goddamn readings for Coptic and Old English, and try to translate a short text into Cayuga with basically no dictionary (I have exactly one week left to do that!) all on top of doing one lesson from whatever we're using for Biblical Hebrew?

You can do it, vijei-san!

[Ser]

It looks like there's not enough interest in this group... I know Biblical Hebrew turned out to be harder than we originally expected, but c'mon.

I guess I'll switch to a thread of my own from now on. You guys overstretch yourselves too much with all these groups.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=56439

[księżycowy]

Yeah, sorry Ser. I just have too much going on right now it seems. I do want to get back to my Hebrew studies, but I have to make sure I focus on what I need for my prospective PhD. studies.

Hopefully a bit down the line I'll be back to it. In the mean time, I'm glad you're continuing!

[vijayjohn]

Ohh, sorry, I totally forgot that you'd gotten this far in both books, Ser!

Hmm, I wonder...you could be right that I'm stretching myself way too thin, too. But I'm stubborn, so I'm going to give myself one more chance to catch up with you.

[księżycowy]

Oh, Vijay....