Modern Hebrew Study Group

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Golv
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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby Golv » 2018-09-16, 18:08

n8an wrote:
Yup!

I wish they'd just be honest in saying that they don't speak 93.3 languages fluently. It's impressive enough to be able to recite basic speeches or improvise without adding the false claim of speaking them like a mother tongue. I think this guy is awesome, but his Hebrew is legit not great and the mispronunciation of a very, very, very common and simple word in "musag" proves that his Hebrew isn't anywhere near as good as he says it is.



Eh, I didn't feel as strongly about the exaggeration of his Hebrew skills as you.
It seems to me his comment on Hebrew feeling like a second mother tongue was probably motivated by his personal Jewish background and meant to convey his regular and long contact with it rather than his proficiency (he after all begins the video stating French is his most proficient language after English).

He does try to give an impression of spontaneity to what is obviously rehearsed speech, but I don't see him making any boasts anywhere else in the video, so I'd cut him some slack, especially if he prepared all the text himself without having any native go over it beforehand (as the mistakes make clear is the case)

Anyway, his accent is quite impressive and his voice sounds so familiar, but I can't remember for the life of me on what cartoon I heard this voice before, even though I have been on the lookout ever since I've watched this video for the first time.

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-09-16, 21:57

Luís wrote:What's with all this Colloquial Hebrew bashing? :(

I think I'm mostly just frustrated because I see no way I could possibly complete all the exercises in one chapter of any Hebrew-language textbook without going nuts at this point. :P I think it's partly just because I'm not all that familiar with Hebrew script and it takes me forever to input it for a whole damn chapter's worth of exercises. I also really need to slow down when it comes to going through all the new vocabulary in this book. I'm starting to review new vocabulary from all the way back in the first dialogue now and trying to make sure I actually remember it this time in the hopes of helping myself feel less daunted.
księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
księżycowy wrote:That's why I like the Routledge textbook. It basically spells things in the unpointed form, unless it's too hard to guess the pronunciation.

Well, technically, this is also a Routledge textbook... :P

Indeed. But it's not The Routledge textbook.

I know and thought you might say that. :D
n8an wrote:
Wow guys, you have quite an active community here. It almost make me want to study Hebrew. (But I probably won't, because you know that my heart is already taken. :whistle: )


Do it! Add Hebrew to your repertoire of Semitic languages :D

And add Persian to your repertoire of Iranian languages, voron! :doggy:

(Of course I know full well nothing will come of our pleas yet).

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby Antea » 2018-09-16, 22:16

vijayjohn wrote:I think I'm mostly just frustrated because I see no way I could possibly complete all the exercises in one chapter of any Hebrew-language textbook without going nuts at this point. :P I think it's partly just because I'm not all that familiar with Hebrew script


Welcome to the club 8-)

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-09-16, 22:32

I keep meaning to post links to some good Hebrew keyboards, since Vijay keeps complaining about typing. :P

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby n8an » 2018-09-17, 0:08

Golv wrote:Eh, I didn't feel as strongly about the exaggeration of his Hebrew skills as you.
It seems to me his comment on Hebrew feeling like a second mother tongue was probably motivated by his personal Jewish background and meant to convey his regular and long contact with it rather than his proficiency (he after all begins the video stating French is his most proficient language after English).

He does try to give an impression of spontaneity to what is obviously rehearsed speech, but I don't see him making any boasts anywhere else in the video, so I'd cut him some slack, especially if he prepared all the text himself without having any native go over it beforehand (as the mistakes make clear is the case).


I know I'm a little harsh on him, but maybe that's just because I tend to understate my own skills in many of the languages I speak (whilst at times I also probably exaggerate them, but that's another story 8-) ). I wouldn't make such claims about my Hebrew, which is definitely a lot better than his. When someone makes claims like that, it's almost like they're inviting people to pay closer attention to it and mistakes become far more noticeable. I didn't go into the video with an eye to critique his skills, but it just happened that way with the things he said :shock:

księżycowy wrote:I keep meaning to post links to some good Hebrew keyboards, since Vijay keeps complaining about typing. :P


I use the Mac keyboards. I usually use the QWERTY-style ones for all foreign languages, which means that I can hardly use real keyboards in any language other than English anymore :shock: I had to make my own for Assyrian, which involved using some app and copying and pasting all of the letters. It was a labour of love, I guess :oops:

I have no idea what people on Windows use, but I can ask my friends.

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-09-18, 6:41

Okay, so by now, I've gone through the first three dialogues (in the whole book!), and...I'm very confused by the word מבקר.

Colloquial translates it as 'visits', but Wiktionary says 'a controller' or 'a critic, a reviewer', and this etymological dictionary also lists 'was controlled, controlled, criticized' as possible meanings. So then how does מבקר have anything to do with visiting? The context in Colloquial is אני מבקר משׁפחה וחברים, apparently meaning 'I'm visiting family and friends'.


EDIT: Never mind, I figured it out. :P
Antea wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I think I'm mostly just frustrated because I see no way I could possibly complete all the exercises in one chapter of any Hebrew-language textbook without going nuts at this point. :P I think it's partly just because I'm not all that familiar with Hebrew script


Welcome to the club 8-)

Thanks! I should've clarified that I meant complete all the exercises in one chapter of any Hebrew-language textbook in one day. I think I need to start doing this piecemeal instead. And there's no rush to start, either!

I've also come to realize that a crucial difference between the Hebrew study groups and the Urdu, Kurdish, Arabic, and Persian ones is that...for the Hebrew ones, I'm relying entirely on these books. I'm using only the words that are already in the books. I'm not using a dictionary. That means every time I want to look something up, I have to use find + replace instead of just looking it up in a dictionary (I don't want to use some word that was never covered in the book!).
księżycowy wrote:I keep meaning to post links to some good Hebrew keyboards, since Vijay keeps complaining about typing. :P

Well, hurry up and post them then!!! :pff: Unless of course you want me to drown in the River Jordan of input method editors.

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby Luís » 2018-11-18, 10:39

עדיין יש פה מישהו? :|
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-18, 11:09

לֹא. :(

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-11-18, 11:43

n8an wrote:Not surprising. I wouldn't have cared about the mistakes if he hadn't been so overly emphatic about how perfectly he speaks these languages, but the overconfidence definitely makes it hard to take the rest of the video seriously.


To be fair Tim Doner was a (probably upper-middle class) teenager at the time, and it seems he's become more humble about his abilities, not less, since he got all that media attention. He did change the video title to "practicing" languages rather than "speaking" them, and as far as I remember in interviews he mostly stressed the enjoyment he got from studying rather than claiming to have any special ability. He also pointed out in his video that he's at different levels in the various languages he'd studied and explicitly asked for advice.

Luís wrote:
עדיין יש פה מישהו? :|


אני עדיין כאן. מה אנחנו רוצים לעשות?

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-19, 7:20

Aha! I was wondering when somebody would finally say something here! :D

If anyone's still interested in the Biblical Hebrew study group, maybe I can do both of those again! (As crazy as it is :silly:)

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby n8an » 2018-11-19, 10:48

הגיע הזמן. מה הסיפור, חבר׳ה?

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-26, 2:55

I have pretty much no idea how to say this in Hebrew, but I still need to review a lot if I'm getting back into this group. :doggy: But I'll come back as long as someone's still currently interested in helping me revive the Biblical Hebrew group.

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby n8an » 2018-11-26, 3:45

vijayjohn wrote:I have pretty much no idea how to say this in Hebrew, but I still need to review a lot if I'm getting back into this group.


אין לי מושג איך אומרים/להגיד את זה בעברית, אבל אני עדיין צריך לחזור על/לבדוק הרבה (חומר) אם אני חוזר לקבוצה הזאת.

לסקור = To survey, review
לחזור על = To go over, review, lit. "to return on"
לבדוק = to check

Personally in this sentence I would say "לחזור על". The overall feeling of לסקור relates too strongly to "surveying" in my brain and לבדוק implies "checking" in the sense of examining for faults etc. Feel free to disagree - my Hebrew is sometimes way too colloquial.

The same goes for "איך להגיד" - I remember at Hebrew school as a kid they would always yell at us for using "איך" in the sense of "I don't know how to do X" (eg: אני לא יודע איך לשחק כדורגל), and tell us that we should omit that word (so אני לא יודע לשחק כדורגל). However, I hear it with איך all the time and it feels more natural to me - probably since I'm approx. 432423% more competent in English - so I use it. Feel free to disagree again :D

:doggy: But I'll come back as long as someone's still currently interested in helping me revive the Biblical Hebrew group.


I'd help if I could...but I can't. I know nothing about the actual rules of Biblical Hebrew.

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-26, 16:18

!תודה
n8an wrote:
:doggy: But I'll come back as long as someone's still currently interested in helping me revive the Biblical Hebrew group.


I'd help if I could...but I can't. I know nothing about the actual rules of Biblical Hebrew.

That's okay; I'm looking for people who want to study it, not people who already know it. ;)

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-11-28, 5:42

n8an wrote:The same goes for "איך להגיד" - I remember at Hebrew school as a kid they would always yell at us for using "איך" in the sense of "I don't know how to do X" (eg: אני לא יודע איך לשחק כדורגל), and tell us that we should omit that word (so אני לא יודע לשחק כדורגל). However, I hear it with איך all the time and it feels more natural to me - probably since I'm approx. 432423% more competent in English - so I use it. Feel free to disagree again :D

I'm taking advantage of this freedom to disagree! :lol: I asked a native speaker with a PhD in Hebrew lit, who told me that אני לא יודע איך להגיד את זה sounds better than אני לא יודע להגיד את זה . Go figure.
Currently away from Unilang.

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby n8an » 2018-11-28, 6:05

eskandar wrote:
n8an wrote:The same goes for "איך להגיד" - I remember at Hebrew school as a kid they would always yell at us for using "איך" in the sense of "I don't know how to do X" (eg: אני לא יודע איך לשחק כדורגל), and tell us that we should omit that word (so אני לא יודע לשחק כדורגל). However, I hear it with איך all the time and it feels more natural to me - probably since I'm approx. 432423% more competent in English - so I use it. Feel free to disagree again :D

I'm taking advantage of this freedom to disagree! :lol: I asked a native speaker with a PhD in Hebrew lit, who told me that אני לא יודע איך להגיד את זה sounds better than אני לא יודע להגיד את זה . Go figure.


Exactly what I think! Maybe my Hebrew teacher was talking about something else and I remember it wrong - it was in my early childhood after all 😝

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-11-28, 9:02

n8an wrote:Exactly what I think! Maybe my Hebrew teacher was talking about something else and I remember it wrong - it was in my early childhood after all 😝


Maybe you overextended this rule to a specific case where it doesn't apply? In Spanish, for example, you could use cómo here but in other cases where we say how in English you would avoid it.

no sé cómo decirlo en hebreo
no sé ∅ nadar
no sé ∅ cantar
no sé ∅ hablar inglés

In Spanish the emphasis is on the difference between knowing a skill (I don't know how to swim = I can't swim) versus knowing a specific way of doing something (I don't know how to... = I don't know in what way I could...).

context.reverso gives both constructions:

https://context.reverso.net/translation ... now+how+to

It also translates I can't sing as אני לא יודע לשיר so maybe the Hebrew usage is closer to Spanish than to English.

Now that I think of it, in Slavic you also do this:

ne znam kako to da kažem na hebrejskom
ne znam ∅ da plivam

nie wiem jak to powiedzieć po hebrajsku
nie umiem ∅ pływać

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby Drink » 2018-11-28, 12:20

The difference is like this. Compare the two examples:
- I don't know how to say this.
- I don't know how to swim.

In the first case, you're wonder literally how to say a particular thing, and therefore you use איך and say:
- אני לא יודע איך להגיד את זה.

But in the second case, you're stating that you haven't learned the skill of swimming yet. This is the case your teacher was talking about where using איך in Hebrew doesn't make sense and the correct way to say it is to omit it:
- אני לא יודע לשחות.

Note: In a different context, the second sentence situation could be interpreted to be like the first one, where you're wondering literally how to go about swimming; for example, if you are being chased and the only way out is through the water, but you don't know whether to swim left or swim right, then you could say it with the איך (although in that particular scenario it may be better to say לאן, but I hope you get my point).
שתה וגם גמליך אשקה

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby n8an » 2018-11-28, 12:53

Saim wrote:
n8an wrote:Exactly what I think! Maybe my Hebrew teacher was talking about something else and I remember it wrong - it was in my early childhood after all 😝


Maybe you overextended this rule to a specific case where it doesn't apply? In Spanish, for example, you could use cómo here but in other cases where we say how in English you would avoid it.

no sé cómo decirlo en hebreo
no sé ∅ nadar
no sé ∅ cantar
no sé ∅ hablar inglés

In Spanish the emphasis is on the difference between knowing a skill (I don't know how to swim = I can't swim) versus knowing a specific way of doing something (I don't know how to... = I don't know in what way I could...).

context.reverso gives both constructions:

https://context.reverso.net/translation ... now+how+to

It also translates I can't sing as אני לא יודע לשיר so maybe the Hebrew usage is closer to Spanish than to English.

Now that I think of it, in Slavic you also do this:

ne znam kako to da kažem na hebrejskom
ne znam ∅ da plivam

nie wiem jak to powiedzieć po hebrajsku
nie umiem ∅ pływać


Ooft, I miss Polish (and Russian).

I think I just don't explain rules properly for some reason. I knew that אני לא יודע איך להגיד את זה felt completely natural, but also not to use איך in the other cases. I don't know if it's good or bad that I suck at explaining or rationalising these things :silly:


Drink wrote:The difference is like this. Compare the two examples:
- I don't know how to say this.
- I don't know how to swim.

In the first case, you're wonder literally how to say a particular thing, and therefore you use איך and say:
- אני לא יודע איך להגיד את זה.

But in the second case, you're stating that you haven't learned the skill of swimming yet. This is the case your teacher was talking about where using איך in Hebrew doesn't make sense and the correct way to say it is to omit it:
- אני לא יודע לשחות.

Note: In a different context, the second sentence situation could be interpreted to be like the first one, where you're wondering literally how to go about swimming; for example, if you are being chased and the only way out is through the water, but you don't know whether to swim left or swim right, then you could say it with the איך (although in that particular scenario it may be better to say לאן, but I hope you get my point).


Yup, that's probably why it feels 100% natural for me to say things like אני לי יודע איך להגיד את זה and also אני לא יודע לשיר. I can still hear my Hebrew teacher yelling at us as kids :shock:

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Re: Modern Hebrew Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-11-28, 18:01

Come to think of it, I'm not aware of any language other than English that would have how in the sentence I don't know how to swim.


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