eskandar - ivrit

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eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-04-22, 23:39

Shalom kolam! Ani kvar lomed ivrit arba'a khodashim, be'ikar be'atsmi. Ani mishtamesh be-Pimsleur ve be-Colloquial Hebrew, ve gam ani tsofe be'televiziya israelit. Tsafiti ba'ona ha-rishona mi shel Shtisel ve hi me'od matsat khen be'eynayi aval leda'avoni, ani lo matsata matsati et ha-ona ha-shniya im ktuviyot.

Kmo she atem ro'im, ani kotev ivrit be-otiyot latiniyot. Ani yakhol likro ha-alef bet ha-ivri, aval ze kashe ve lo khashuv bishvili, ki ani rak rotse lihiyot mesugal ledaber be-ivrit ve lo likro. Az ani kotev kakha ve im efshar she atem kotvim gam kakha, metsuyan, toda me-rosh!

*Question: from Googling it seems like "kfi she atem ro'im" would be a better way to say this. Ha'im "kmo atem ro'im" gam mekubal o lo? Ma ha-hevdel bein "kfi" u'vein "kmo"? [Turns out "kfi" is literary and "kmo" is colloquial]
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-04-23, 3:05

Trying to transcribe and translate this Hebrew video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ax900reMWM

Shalom. Shmi Yochai Cohen. Ani ? be-Israel, ?im sheli hayu mi Tunis, saba ve savta hayu mi Tunis, ve ? mi Tunis ... Djerba, ze i ... be-Tunisia, sham haya yesh mishpachot yehudiyot, mishpachot muslimiyot she garu ve khayu be-yakhad. Sava ve savta sheli ? be-arets bishnat arba'im ve shmone. Ba-bayit (ima dibra?) et ha-safa ivrit, ma she ani medaber akhshav, ve ani me'od ? safa ivrit, me'od ? et ha-safa ivrit, me'od ani ohev et ha-safa ivrit, ve ani gam ken ? be ha-safa zoti(?). Ani khazan be-beit kneset, be-New York, be-Brooklyn New York, she be-beit kneset shelakhnu medabrim, mitpalelim be-ivrit. Ani ? gam ken be-ivrit. Ve ba-bayit dibru gam ken et ha-safa ha-aravit. Aravit she anakhnu medabrim, hi lo aravit meduberet she ha-surim ? medaberim. Kol ? yesh la et ha-aravit shela. Ha-aravit ha-Djerbait, ha-aravit ha-tunisait, barur(?) ... milim be-ivrit gam ken, ve ze ha-slang mi ? be-Djerba, ze slang shone(?) mi harbe ? ba-olam. Kama dvarim she ? ha-safa ivrit ve ha-safa aravit, ekhad me ha-dvarim she ani yodea ma Ram Bam katav she ha-safa ha-ivrit...
(0:00-1:37)

Hi. My name is Yochai Cohen. I ? in Israel, my ? were from Tunis, my grandfather and grandmother were from Tunis, and ... Djerba, it's an island ... in Tunisia, there were Jewish families [and] Muslim families there that lived together. My grandparents ? to Israel in the year '48. At home (my mom spoke?) the Hebrew language, which I am speaking now, and I really ? the Hebrew language, really ? the Hebrew language, I really love the Hebrew language, and I also ? in this language?. I am a cantor in a synagogue, in New York, in Brooklyn New York, where we speak, we pray in Hebrew in our synagogue. I also ? in Hebrew. And at home they also spoke Arabic. The Arabic which we speak is not the Arabic spoken--that the Syrians ? speak. Every ? has its (own) Arabic (dialect). Djerba Arabic, Tunisian Arabic, obviously(?) ... words in Hebrew as well, and this slang from ? in Djerba, this slang is different(?) from many ? in the world. Some things that ? the Hebrew language and the Arabic language, one of the things that I know is that Maimonedes wrote that the Hebrew language...
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby Luís » 2018-04-23, 9:44

Behatzlakha! :D
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby Saim » 2018-04-23, 12:32

eskandar wrote:Trying to transcribe and translate this Hebrew video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ax900reMWM

Shalom. Shmi Yochai Cohen. Ani noladti be-Israel, ha-horim sheli hayu mi Tunis, saba ve savta hayu mi Tunis, ve ha-makom mi be-Tunis kor'im le-zeh Djerba, ze i ... be-Tunisia, shama haya yesh harbe mishpachot yehudiyot, mishpachot muslimiyot she garu ve khayu be-yakhad. Sava ve savta sheli hegiyu bela-arets bishnat arba'im ve shmone. Ba-bayit dibarnu et ha-safa ha-ivrit, ma she ani medaber akhshav, ve ani me'od himshakhti? la-safa ha-ivrit, me'od ? et ha-safa ha-ivrit, me'od ani ohev et ha-safa ha-ivrit, ve ani gam ken shar be haba-safa zoti. Ani khazan be-beit kneset, be-New York, be-Brooklyn New York, she ba-beit kneset shelakhnu medabrim, mitpalelim be-ivrit. Ani moser shiurim gam ken be-ivrit. Ve ba-bayit dibru gam ken et ha-safa ha-aravit. ha-aravit she anakhnu medabrim, hi lo aravit meduberet she ha-surim ha-mitsrim medaberim. Kol edah yesh la et ha-aravit shela. Ha-aravit ha-Djerbait, ha-aravit ha-tunisait, meurbavim be-harbe milim me-ivrit gam ken, ve ze ha-slang ha-miyukhad she haya be-Djerba, ze slang shone me harbe mekomot ba-olam. Kama dvarim she kshurim la-safa ivrit ve la-safa ha-aravit, ekhad me ha-dvarim she ani yodea mar Ram Bam katav she ha-safa ha-ivrit...
(0:00-1:37)

Hi. My name is Yochai Cohen. I was born in Israel, my parents were from Tunis, my grandfather and grandmother were from Tunis, and the place in Tunis, it is called Djerba, it's an island ... in Tunisia, there are [were] Jewish families [and] Muslim families there that lived together. My grandparents arrived in Israel in the year '48. At home we spoke the Hebrew language, which I am speaking now, and I really ? the Hebrew language, really ? the Hebrew language, I really love the Hebrew language, and I also sing in this language. I am a cantor in a synagogue, in New York, in Brooklyn New York, where we speak, we pray in Hebrew in our synagogue. I also teach [transmit] classes in Hebrew. And at home they also spoke Arabic. The Arabic which we speak is not the Arabic spoken the spoken Arabic--that the Syrians, the Egyptians speak. Every ethnic group has its (own) Arabic (dialect). Djerba Arabic, Tunisian Arabic, are mixed with words in Hebrew as well, and this unique slang that was in Djerba, this slang is different from many places in the world. Some things related to the Hebrew language and the Arabic language, one of the things that I know is that Maimonedes wrote that the Hebrew language...


be + ha = ba
le + ha = la

BUT

mi + ha = me ha (pronounced mea, spelt -מה)
[מ- is pronounced me before ע ,א ,ח ,ה ,ר]

Keep in mind also that in normal spoken Hebrew /h/ is mostly not pronounced, so a lot of the time the definite article is just pronounced [a], which is probably why you missed it a couple of times in your transcription.

eskandar wrote:Shalom le-kulam!


כל - kol
כלם - kulam

ve gam ani tsofe gam be'televiziya israelit


גם אני צופה
-gam ani tsofe...
I also watch (as well as someone else)

אני צופה גם
-ani tsofe gam...
I also watch (as well as something else that I do/watch)

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-04-25, 6:33

Yo, be-emet toda raba Saim! These corrections were so helpful. I knew that /h/ is mostly dropped but in practice it's still hard to figure out sometimes.

I've tried to transcribe and translate another minute or so, from 1:33-2:43:

Ani yodea mar Ram Bam katav she ha-safa ha-ivrit kamuvan ? et ha-safa ha-aravit ve ha-safa ha-aravit ze ? she ha-safa ha-ivrit. Efshar lehagid ?, efshar lehagid gam ken shinu et ha-safa ha-ivrit, halkhu ve shinu et ha-safa ha-ivrit. Ha-yom ha-safa she anakhnu medabrim she ha-rov medabrim, hi lo safa ivrit tanakhit; ha-safa ha-ivrit ha-tanaknit yesh la harbe ma ledaber, ma lehagid, rov ha-anashim ha-yom lo mevinin et ha-safa ha-ivrit kolkakh. Rak im ata lomed ivrit mi tokh ha-tanakh, mi tokh ha-torah, az? ata yakhol lehavin et ha-safa ha-tanakhit. Ma she medaberim berekhov ze safa she notsra ba-shanim ha-?, ba-shishim ? , kmo Eliezer Ben-Yehuda ve od kama anashim she hem patkhu? safa khadasha, ve ze ma she anakhnu medaberim ve she ani medaber, kamuvan she ha-safa ha-ivrit gam ken yesh milim she ani medaber ? mi tokh ha-torah, aval ze safa she... anakhnu lo kolkakh mishtamshim? ? ba-torah.

I know that Maimonides wrote that the Hebrew language of course ? the Arabic language and the Arabic language this ? the Hebrew language. One can say ?, one can also say they changed the Hebrew language, they went and changed the Hebrew language. Today the language that we speak, that the majority speaks, is not Biblical Hebrew; Biblical Hebrew has much to say, much to say, most people today don't understand the language that much. Only if you learn Hebrew from the Tanakh, from the Torah, then? you can understand the Biblical language. That which we speak on the street, it's a language that was created in the years ?, in the sixties ?, like Eliezer Ben-Yehuda and some other people who opened? a new language, and this which we speak and which I speak, of course the Hebrew language also has words which I speak ? from within the Torah, but this is a language which... we don't so much use? ? to the Torah.
Last edited by eskandar on 2018-06-19, 12:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-04-26, 6:05

2:43-3:43

Be-Djerba, hayu anashim medabrim harbe ivrit, kamuvan she ha-rabbanim, ha-khakhamim hayu mishtamshim? ve ha-ktavim shelhem be-ivrit, aval kamuvan she gam ken ba-rekhov hayu medabrim be-aravit. Ve ani ? ma al ha-safa ha-Djerbait ve al ha-Tunisait eikh she hem medabrim kama milim she ani ? me'od ? be ha-aravit ve ha-ivrit. Im, lemashal, rotsim lish'ol ben Adam ba-safa ha-aravit "ma shlomkha?", az yish'alu oto "kif el 7aal" o... "kif el 7aal" be-derekh ? ze ha-mila she yish'alu ben adam be-aravit. Be-aravit Tunisait, yesh lehem ktsat mivta shone...

In Djerba, there were people who spoke a lot of Hebrew, of course the rabbis, the sages were using? [it] and their writings [were] in Hebrew, but of course also in the street they were speaking Arabic. And I ? about the Djerba and Tunisian language, how they speak, some words that I really ? in Arabic and Hebrew. If, for example, they want to ask someone in the Arabic language "how are you?", then they will ask him "kif el 7aal" or..."kif el 7aal" in the road ? this is the word that they ask someone in Arabic. In Tunisian Arabic, they have a bit of a different accent...
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-04-27, 5:33

3:43-4:43

Lo rak mivta gam ken milim shonot ve ze yesh slang, yesh "shnuwa 7aalek", "shnuwa 7aalek" ze be-aravit tunisait. "Harbe" be ha-safa ha-aravit omrim "ktiir" ve ba-safa ha-aravit ha-Djerbait o ha-Tunisait ? et ha-mila "barsa" o "barsha". Harbe shinuim bein ha-yehudim ve ha-aravim gam ken ba-safa she hayu medabrim bimkom "sha" "sa". Yesh harbe milim gam ken bein ha-safa ha-aravit be-Tunis bein, ze slangs, bein ha-aravit be-Tunis ve ha-aravit be-Djerba gam ken meshonim. Kshe yehudim hegiyu la-arets, hayu gam ken medabrim be-aravit ba-bayit, medabrim be-aravit ? khuts medabrim be-ivrit. Ani nimtsa kan be-New York, ani melamed et ha-safa ha-ivrit. Ani gam ken dover et ha-safa ha-aravit biglal she yesh po k'hila gdola shel surim, levanonim, ve mitsrim, ve ani dover et ha-safa im ha-slang shehem medabrim ve lo im ha-slang ha-tunisait.

Not just an accent, also different words, and there is this slang, "shnuwa 7aalek", "shnuwa 7aalek" this is in Tunisian Arabic. "A lot" in the Arabic language, we say "ktiir" and in the Djerba or Tunisian Arabic language ? the word "barsa" or "barsha." Lots of changes between the Jews and the Arabs as well in the language that they were speaking, "sa" in place of "sha". There are lots of words as well between the Arabic language in Tunis, between, this slang, between the Arabic in Tunis and the Arabic in Djerba are also different. When Jews came to Israel, they were also speaking in Arabic at home, speaking in Arabic ? half speaking in Hebrew. I live [I'm found] here in New York, I teach the Hebrew language. I also speak the Arabic language because here there is a big community of Syrians, Lebanese, and Egyptians, and I speak the language with the slang that they speak and not with the Tunisian slang.
Last edited by eskandar on 2018-06-19, 11:53, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-04-29, 8:07

4:43-5:41

Ha-sipur me'od katsar u meanyan kshe nasati le-Tunis lifnei kim'at khamesh shanim, az... hitkhalti ledaber im ha-anashim sham be-aravit ve az hem sha'alu oti im ani mi Tunis o...im ani mi Suriya. Ve ani amarti lehem lo, ani lo mi Suriya ani mi Tunis, ha-mishpakha sheli mi Tunis. Lo he'eminu li ki hem amru she ha-slang she ani medaber hu ba-safa ha-aravait ha-Tunisait. Ze me'od meanyen she harbe anashim, ein lehem et ze, im ata noladata be-Tunis, ata... ha-slang shelkha slang Tunisai, im noladata be-Suriya ha-slang shelkha Suri. Az etsli ze ktsat hishtana biglal she ani gar po ba-k'hila, be-New York, ba-k'hila ha-Surit ve ani khai itam me'od harbe shanim az gam ha-slang sheli gam ken ha-mivta she ani medaber, be-aravit korim le ze "lahja" hishtana li me'od me'od harbe. Al ha-safa ha-ivrit ktsat kodem kol ba-safa ha-ivrit...

The story is very short and interesting when I went to Tunis almost 5 years ago, so... I started to speak with the people there in Arabic and so they asked me if I'm from Tunis or...if I'm from Syria. And I told them no, I'm not from Syria, I'm from Tunis, my family is from Tunis. They didn't believe me because they said that the slang that I speak is in the Tunisian Arabic language. It's really interesting that many people, they don't have this, if you were born in Tunis, you... your slang is Tunisian slang, if you were born in in Syria your slang is Syrian. So for me this changed a little because I live here in the community, in New York, in the Syrian community and I live with them for very many years, so also my slang, also the accent that I speak, in Arabic we call this "lahja", changed for me very very much. About the Hebrew language a little first of all in the Hebrew language...
Last edited by eskandar on 2018-06-19, 12:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby eskandar » 2018-04-30, 7:14

5:41-end

... shel ha-safa ha-ivrit ? me ha-Torah, ha-Torah zoa? (is revealed?), ha-Torah hi ha-yasod (foundation) shel ha-safa ha-ivrit, ve ? hitpateakh gam ken ha-dikduk shel ha-safa ha-ivrit ? hitpateakh gam ken ? dibur shel ha-safa ha-ivrit, ve ad ha-yom anashim medabrim et ha-safa ha-zoti. Ha-yehudim ba-olam lo kolkakh rabim, anakhnu ? pakhot mi kim'at akhuz ekhad be-kol ha-olam. ? omeret she ha-safa ? hi lo safa kolkakh meduberet ba-olam, aval adayin kim'at kol ha-anashim ba-olam, lo kol aval harbe anashim ba-olam yodim mi ze yehudim ve she ha-safa shelhem ze ha-safa ha-ivrit. Toda raba.

... of the Hebrew language ? from the Torah, the Torah is revealed(?), the Torah is the foundation of the Hebrew language, and ? it developed as well the grammar of the Hebrew language ? it developed as well ? speech of the Hebrew language, and people [still] speak this language up until now. There are not so many Jews in the world, we ? are less than about one percent in the whole world. ? this means that the language ? is not a language spoken so much in the world, but still almost everyone in the world, not everyone but many people in the world know who the Jews are and that their language is the Hebrew language. Thank you very much.

I feel like he didn't pronounce most Hebrew words with the Arabic or Tiberian pronunciation, yet it sounds like he said, for example, "akhuz" with the classical pronunciation of the khet (that is, like Arabic ح) at 6:07.
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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby Saim » 2018-05-01, 15:03

eskandar wrote:Yo, be-emet toda raba Saim! These corrections were so helpful. I knew that /h/ is mostly dropped but in practice it's still hard to figure out sometimes.


bevakasha! gam li zeh sikui letargel. :)

בבקשה! גם לי זה סיכוי לתרגל


Ani yodea mar Ram Bam katav she ha-safa ha-ivrit kamuvan hi kduma yoter me ha-safa ha-aravit ve ha-safa ha-aravit ze hitpatkhut shel ha-safa ha-ivrit. Efshar lehagid hitpatkhut, efshar lehagid gam ken shinu et shinui shel ha-safa ha-ivrit, hem ? ve shinu et ha-safa ha-ivrit. Ha-yom ha-safa she anakhnu medabrim she ha-rov medabrim, hi lo safa ivrit tanakhit; la-safa ha-ivrit ha-tanaknit yesh la harbe ma ledaber, ma lehagid, rov ha-anashim ha-yom lo mevinin et ha-safa ha-ivrit kolkakh. Rak im ata lomed ivrit mi tokh ha-tanakh, mi tokh ha-torah, az? ata yakhol lehavin et ha-safa ha-tanakhit. Ma she medaberim ba-rekhov ze safa she notsra ba-shanim ha-akharonot, ba-shishim shana ha-akharanot, kmo Eliezer Ben-Yehuda ve od kama anashim she hem pitkhu safa khadasha, ve ze ma she anakhnu medaberim ve she ani medaber, kamuvan she zeh ha-safa ha-ivrit gam ken yesh milim she ani medaber (hem?) be-tokh ha-torah, aval zo safa she... anakhnu lo kolkakh mishtamshim? ita ba-torah.

I know that Maimonides wrote that the Hebrew language of course is more ancient than the Arabic language and the Arabic language this is a development/progression of the Hebrew language. One can say progression, one can also say they changed a change/transformation of the Hebrew language, they ? and changed the Hebrew language. Today the language that we speak, that the majority speaks, is not Biblical Hebrew; Biblical Hebrew has much to say, much to say, most people today don't understand the language that much. Only if you learn Hebrew from the Tanakh, from the Torah, then? you can understand the Biblical language. That which we speak on the street, it's a language that was created in the last years, the last sixty years, like Eliezer Ben-Yehuda and some other people who developed a new language, and this which we speak and which I speak, of course this is the Hebrew language, there are words which I speak that are in the Torah, but this is a language which... we don't so much use? ? in the Torah.


The literal meaning of zeh is "this", but it is often used as the copula (especially in spoken Hebrew, I'd say, but don't quote me on that!). zo is the optional feminine form of zeh.

pitkhu and hitpatkhut are from the same root פ-ת-ח

After mistamshim he clearly says ita, which is the preposition im (with) declined for 3fsg.
im is declined for person and number in the following way:

iti
itkha / itakh
ito / itah
itanu
itkhem / itkhen
itam / itan

This honestly kind of confuses me because as far as I can tell in both Arabic and Hebrew instrumental constructions are made with the prepositon be- (i.e. "in" and instrumental "with" are the same) rather than im (instrumental and associative "with" being the same as in English). I would've expected mishtamshim ba, which is the form I've always heard in Hebrew. Perhaps a native or someone more advanced than I am will have to swoop in and comment on this usage.
Last edited by Saim on 2018-05-03, 12:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby Saim » 2018-05-01, 15:49

eskandar wrote:2:43-3:43

Be-Djerba, hayu anashim medabrim harbe ivrit, kamuvan she ha-rabbanim, ha-khakhamim hayu mishtamshim ba-ktavim shelahem be-ivrit, aval kamuvan she gam ken ba-rekhov hayu medabrim be-aravit. Ve ani eten lakhem dugma al ha-safa ha-Djerbait ve al ha-Tunisait eikh she hem medabrim kama milim she ani eten lakhem dugmaot legabe ha-aravit ve ha-ivrit. Im, lemashal, rotsim lish'ol ben Adam ba-safa ha-aravit "ma shlomkha?", az yish'alu oto "kif el 7aal" o... "kif el 7aal" be-derekh klal ze ha-mila she yish'alu ben adam be-aravit. Be-aravit Tunisait, yesh lehem ktsat mivta shone...

In Djerba, there were people who spoke a lot of Hebrew, of course the rabbis, the sages would use Hebrew in their writings, but of course also in the street they would speak Arabic. And I will give you an example about the Djerba and Tunisian language, how they speak, some words that I will give you examples regarding Arabic and Hebrew. If, for example, they want to ask someone in the Arabic language "how are you?", then they will ask him "kif el 7aal" or..."kif el 7aal" generally this is the word that they ask someone in Arabic. In Tunisian Arabic, they have a bit of a different accent...


Here the verb lihiyot is an auxiliary that forms the past habitual tense (it takes the same form as the conditional, as in English).
He also uses lehistamesh with the preposition be- as I would've expected. The be- in be-ivrit here refers back to the verb lehistamesh.

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby Golv » 2018-05-30, 15:52

Saim wrote:iti
itkha / itakh
ito / itah
itanu
itkhem / itkhen
itam / itan

I'll note Hebrew speakers do not think of et and im as being the same preposition, but I suppose you could treat those as suppletive forms.

Saim wrote:Perhaps a native or someone more advanced than I am will have to swoop in and comment on this usage.

להשתמש את is substandard and sounds off, but does occur. Instrumental constructions can be made with "im" though, and are often preferred by Israelis to the classical and more literary sounding "be" construction.
Israelis are more likely to say מתגלח עם סכין than מתגלח בסכין, for instance. It hasn't replaced be's role for adverbial constructions though (במהירות, בסבלנות וכו').

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Re: eskandar - ivrit

Postby n8an » 2018-06-11, 13:06

Oh my lord, how did I not know you were learning Hebrew? :D


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