JunMing wrote:I wonder which is the equivalent in the International Phonetic Alphabet for the Hangeul ㄹ? (I think I will have a few questions to ask about this in the future).
You forgot about this question, which is actually the one why I started this thread...
svenska84 wrote:I've seen all those symbols used to transcribe it, too. In my Korean professors I've heard what I'd transcribe as [ɔ] for that sound.
That seems to make sense, if your teachers are all from Seoul or speak the Seoul dialect as a standard. Myself this is the sound I hear most of the time in the *official* South Korean/western materials (generally based on Seoul dialect), but I never heard this sound when listening to Chinese Koreans, or to North Koreans: I really think I heard an unrounded sound, very certainly [ə] (which I know from my native language).
svenska84 wrote:[ʌ] and [ə] don't have rounding, and my professors definitely always have rounded lips for that sound. In fact, I think good evidence that it's [ɔ] at least as my professors say it is that it's a challenging sound for many of us Californians to master, as we don't have phonemic [ɔ] in our dialect of English, so hearing (and especially producing) the difference between [o] 오 and [ɔ] 어 is a big challenge for many students (my professor said it's one of the hardest sound differentiations for Californians to consistently make...and in the experience of my classees that's true--my classmates confused them all the time). According to my head Korean professor, who got a PhD in some branch of linguistics (can't remember), she said having taught in "cot-caught" nonmerged areas, it was much easier to get Americans to differentiate between those sounds than in places she's taught like California.
The problem is different for me, as I am used to hear both sounds [ɔ] and [ə] in my native language, along with [o] obviously (even if I never pronounce [ɔ] myself, nor is it pronounced by speakers who originates from my area, yet I was confronted to it on TV and official medias at a young age to be able to recognise it in any language).
I brought that question because I was surprised to see how 어 was said to have different IPA equivalents in all my sources... and also because it still appears very odd to me to think such different sounds can correspond to the same hangeul... But that's probably because I am too used to these sounds as I could point...
Luís wrote:What I hear is [ɔ] as well. My native language (Portuguese) distinguishes between [ɔ] and [o] and to me the difference between Korean 어 and 오 seems to be the same.
It can be a question hard to answer: do all your materials originate from South Korea, and/or are written by teachers who base themselves on the Seoul dialect?
I don't want to sound too picky; I asked that question because it seems to me that the sound of the materials I have are not representative of the sounds I heard from native speakers... probably because they speak a dialect too different from the Seoul dialect?
svenska84 wrote:JunMing wrote:으 : I have seen [ɨ] and [ɯ] in my materials. I tend to believe it's the latter I've been hearing so far, [ɯ], which is also in my chinese textbooks. According to some sources it also seems to be the turkish "ı" (i without a dot), and the first component in the russian diphthong "ы"; which both make sense to me.
I think it's closer to [ɨ], as my professors say it. It's completely unrounded, as is [ɯ] of course, but [ɯ] is articulatorily only an unrounded [u], which is far too back to be 으 , which is a high-central sound best represented by [ɨ], I believe.
Luís wrote:I agree. Once again, I notice no difference whatsoever between the Korean 으 and the Portuguese unstressed 'e' (which is [ɨ]). Russian ы is [ɨ] as well.
Thanks both of you for explaining this!
I probably remember my Russian semester too bad, since I remebered ы as a diphthong...
svenska84 wrote:JunMing wrote:애 : I keep on reading it is [ɛ] but according to my experience of [ɛ] in other languages I really can't imagine it's the same sound. To me it appears to be [æ]...
My professor says it depends on the dialect. In Standard Seoul speech, the sound is effectively merged with 에 [e]. Our professors told us to say both 에 and 애 as [e], but to remember the difference for spelling. I've read that non-merged dialects may have [ɛ] or [æ] for 애, so your perceptions are probably right, you're just hearing a non-merged dialect.
That explains why I heard advices like "don't try to differenciate them since many natives don't make the difference themselves"...
What about yourself, svenska84, did you hear non-Seoul Standard speakers who used [ɛ] or [æ]? I read that [æ] is the way the "a" in "fat" is pronounced in RP and Standard America, and that [ɛ] is how it is pronounced in New Zealand... so any English speaker would know, and you even better...
Luís wrote:As for 에 and 애, I learned it should be [e] and [ae], but that some (most?) Koreans don't make a distinction between the two. Strangely enough, I have a book that says that making the distinction is very important and then goes on to present a large list of minimal pairs. In the tapes that come with the book all speakers make the distinction...
Exactly, that's a problem I face too...
svenska84 wrote:JunMing wrote:외 : I read it's [ø] but no...
I can't believe it. It's a diphtong. But which one? It can't be the one I think of, which would be theorically 웨...
Another dialectal difference. Apparently 의 is [ø] in many dialects, but in Seoul its [ɨi] or [e] depending on position. My professor says her husband isn't from Seoul and has [ø], which she says sounds "weird" to her, but it is common in non-Seoul dialects, I believe. She said Seoul's pronunciation of it as [ɨi] is probably as a result of a spelling pronunciation which has become the norm, which would make sense given how it's spelled.
Thanks for your explanations again.
svenska84 wrote:JunMing wrote:위 : I read it's [y] but I can't believe it, like the one above.
Hmm, I haven't heard about that one. In class we were taught it was [wi].
Then it's another dialectal difference? I read it's [y] on the material where I saw 의 transcribed as [ø]. Now I remember I bought the tapes with that material; I should check how it sounds, because the 위 and 의 I hear from materials in the Seoul dialect sound nothing like these, but like the ones you mention instead.
svenska84 wrote:I hadn't heard about variation for 외, which we were always taught to pronounce just like 웨 [we], but to memorize the difference in spelling.
See, as I said before it really depends on dialect. According to the Seoul dialect which we learn, those following sounds are as follows:
왜 [we]
웨 [we]
위 [wi]
외 [we]
와 [wa]
워 [wɔ]
의 [ɨi] or [e] as possessive
Indeed, I read "의" is pronounced like "에" when it is the possessive/determinative particle (in South Korean material...
).
I am astonished by how many of these compounds, namely 왜, 웨, 외 sound alike ([we]) in the Seoul dialect.
I didn't try to transcribe these myself as I was afraid [w] would not be the first letter used in all transcriptions...
svenska84 wrote:JunMing wrote:A friend of mine, a native Korean from the southwest of South Korea (the countryside south of 광주), told me that he doesn't make the difference between most of these sounds himself, but that didn't help me much...
Haha--yeah, without a clear description of what he does, his comment is unfortunately not very helpful. All I can say is with my professors, who speak the Seoul dialect, and the Korean movies I've watched, which prefer the Seoul "Standard" dialect, the transcriptions for the speech are as I wrote above. However, you may not be going for the Seoul dialect, so I'm not sure if you'd want to emulate those or not.
I still have no idea which dialect I am going for, because of different sources and materials, where so many sounds are different...
Luís wrote:And since we're at it, is it just me or has anyone else ever heard a Korean pronounce ㅊ as [tsʰ]? This reminds me of Chinese people who pronounce c for ch (I think they also do this in the regions bordering Korea, but I'm not sure. Junming might know better).
The difference is that in Korean you can't really mistake ㅊ for anything else, even if it's pronounced [tsʰ], unlike in Chinese
I don't think I ever heard that. But I'm not saying it can't happen...
There is another very striking difference in pronunciation (concerning consonants this time), I'll mention it as soon as I get svenska84's answer to my first question.
That would be interesting to try to retrieve the pronunciations of several different Korean dialects, and to make a table out of them. But it'd take a lot of researches, in the case there are any resources available...