-(으)ㄴ 적(이) 있다/없다

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Psi-Lord
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-(으)ㄴ 적(이) 있다/없다

Postby Psi-Lord » 2009-03-18, 7:07

I’ve learnt the -(으)ㄴ 적(이) 있다/없다 pattern in order to express someone’s past experience. However, I realised that, in all examples given, the -아(어/여) 보다 pattern was included:

한국음식을 먹어 본 적이 있어요.
한국에 가 본 전이 있으세요?
《삼국지연의》을 읽어 본 전이 없어요.

I could have interpreted that as actually implying one has ever tried to do something (though this may sound a bit awkward in some cases), but the glosses don’t even hint at the trying bit. So, if I were to rewrite the sentences as:

한국음식을 먹은 적이 있어요.
한국에 전이 있으세요?
《삼국지연의》을 읽은 전이 없어요.

would there be a change in meaning? Or wouldn’t they be correct?
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Re: -(으)ㄴ 적(이) 있다/없다

Postby Karavinka » 2009-03-18, 22:03

Psi-Lord wrote:I’ve learnt the -(으)ㄴ 적(이) 있다/없다 pattern in order to express someone’s past experience. However, I realised that, in all examples given, the -아(어/여) 보다 pattern was included:

한국음식을 먹어 본 적이 있어요.
한국에 가 본 이 있으세요?
《삼국지연의》을 읽어 본 이 없어요.

I could have interpreted that as actually implying one has ever tried to do something (though this may sound a bit awkward in some cases), but the glosses don’t even hint at the trying bit. So, if I were to rewrite the sentences as:

한국음식을 먹은 적이 있어요.
한국에 이 있으세요?
《삼국지연의》을 읽은 이 없어요.

would there be a change in meaning? Or wouldn’t they be correct?


Yes, 보다 (literally "to see") implies an attempt and/or having had a chance to do something. "I have tried eating some Korean food" is quite okay in English, but the other two would be awkward if translated literally into English with "to try" but rather "Have you had a chance to go to Korea?" or "I haven't had a chance to read The Romance of the Three Kingdoms." Or they can be simply "I have been to" or "I haven't read." (A hint: 었/았 pattern is perfect tense. Double 었 is pluperfect, and Korean lacks simple past proper. Some texts may use the simple past in translations to make it sound more natural in translations.)
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Re: -(으)ㄴ 적(이) 있다/없다

Postby Psi-Lord » 2009-03-19, 1:14

I’m so proud of myself for having learnt how to touchtype in Korean years ago and still remember it, and yet I keep misspelling a lot of words totally out of lack of attention. :oops:

noir wrote:Yes, 보다 (literally "to see") implies an attempt and/or having had a chance to do something.

Ah, thinking of it as having a chance (instead of just trying) to do something does help me see the pattern more clearly.

Although my Japanese is mostly dorment these days, I find myself hearing echoes of Japanese grammatical patterns when I find a new Korean one. So, while 먹은 적이 있다 made me think of 食べたことがある, and 먹어 보다 食べてみる, putting both patterns together in Korean probably also sounded funny to my ears because I can’t remember having ever used both in Japanese (not that I’d know whether 食べてみたことがある exists or not, I just can’t remember having seen it).

noir wrote:(A hint: 었/았 pattern is perfect tense. Double 었 is pluperfect, and Korean lacks simple past proper. Some texts may use the simple past in translations to make it sound more natural in translations.)

That’s a bit like why e.g. 갔어요 means you have gone (and are still there), while 갔었어요 means you went (but are already back) (similar to Japanese 行っている versus plain 行った), isn’t it?
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Re: -(으)ㄴ 적(이) 있다/없다

Postby Karavinka » 2009-03-19, 3:36

Psi-Lord wrote:I’m so proud of myself for having learnt how to touchtype in Korean years ago and still remember it, and yet I keep misspelling a lot of words totally out of lack of attention. :oops:

noir wrote:Yes, 보다 (literally "to see") implies an attempt and/or having had a chance to do something.

Ah, thinking of it as having a chance (instead of just trying) to do something does help me see the pattern more clearly.

Although my Japanese is mostly dorment these days, I find myself hearing echoes of Japanese grammatical patterns when I find a new Korean one. So, while 먹은 적이 있다 made me think of 食べたことがある, and 먹어 보다 食べてみる, putting both patterns together in Korean probably also sounded funny to my ears because I can’t remember having ever used both in Japanese (not that I’d know whether 食べてみたことがある exists or not, I just can’t remember having seen it).

noir wrote:(A hint: 었/았 pattern is perfect tense. Double 었 is pluperfect, and Korean lacks simple past proper. Some texts may use the simple past in translations to make it sound more natural in translations.)

That’s a bit like why e.g. 갔어요 means you have gone (and are still there), while 갔었어요 means you went (but are already back) (similar to Japanese 行っている versus plain 行った), isn’t it?


You're right with the echo between Japanese and Korean. Yes tabete mita koto ga aru is possible but not exactly the most used one. Meogeo bon jeogi idda, is very common, however.

Japanese itteiru would correspond to ga idda instead. You went (ga) and stay there (idda). The correspondence between gadda and itta are right, but the pluperfect gasseodda wouldn't find a correspondence in Japanese AFAIK. That is why the form itteita is used instead.

(And sorry, can't type other scripts.)
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