Icelandic Relative Clauses

marchhare292
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Icelandic Relative Clauses

Postby marchhare292 » 2005-05-08, 9:47

Hi, I am a student of linguistics and currently working on a paper dealing with preposition stranding and pied piping in the Germanic languages.
I need translations of some sentences, could anybody help? That would be extremely nice.

Btw, the Pied Piper of Hamlin is a German story of a rat catcher who frees the city of Hamlin (Hameln in Germany) of a plague of rats by blowing on his flute and then bewitches the town's children to follow him, when the mayor refuses to pay him for the rat catching. Someone decided to name the grammatical phenomenon of prepositions (and other structures) following along with their complements in wh-movement (e.g. relative clause formation) after this story.

I would like to use the "pied piper" in all my examples and have so far been able to find equivalents in the languages I am using since it is a pretty well-known story it seems. If it is impossible to translate, however, could anyone who answers this just substitute "the Pied Piper of Hamlin' with a simple "the man"? Thank you so much.

Here are the sentences:
(If there are different options for the position of the preposition it would be important to give both options. I have given the two grammatically possible options in English with a) and b). Also, there may be no equivalent for one of the pronouns in Icelandic - if there isn't, indicate that).

a)
This is the Pied Piper of Hamlin. I go with the Pied Piper of Hamlin. -->
a) This is the Pied Piper of Hamlin with whom I go.
b) This is the Pied Piper of Hamlin whom I go with .

a) With whom do you go?
b) Whom do you go with?

This is a car. I drive in the car to school. -->

a) This is the car in which I drive to school.
b) This is the car which I drive in to school.
c)This is the car that I drive to school in.

a) In which car do you drive?
b) Which car do you drive in?

Thanks so much for your help!

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JackFrost
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Re: Icelandic Relative Clauses

Postby JackFrost » 2005-05-09, 19:42

a) This is the Pied Piper of Hamlin with whom I go.
Þessi er maðurinn með hverjum ég fer.
b) This is the Pied Piper of Hamlin whom I go with.
Þessi er maðurinn með hverjum ég fer.

a) With whom do you go?
Með hverjum ferð þú?
b) Whom do you go with?
Með hverjum ferð þú?

a) This is the car in which I drive to school.
Þessi er bíllinn í hverjum ég keyri á skóla.
b) This is the car which I drive in to school.
Þessi er bíllinn í hverjum ég keyri á skóla.
c)This is the car that I drive to school in.
Þessi er bíllinn í hverjum ég keyri á skóla.

a) In which car do you drive?
Í hverjum bíllinn keyrir þú?
b) Which car do you drive in?
Í hverjum bíllinn keyrir þú?

I tried my best, but I cannot promise you they're all correct. The sentences seem all the same because in Icelandic, you put the relative pronouns after the prepositions, and the prepositions cannot move away from the relative pronouns. I never saw an Icelandic sentence that ends with a preposition or prepositions that stray away from relative pronouns.

And sorry, I cannot translate "the Pied Piper of Hamlin." So I used "maðurinn" (the man) as you requested. ;)
Neferuj paħujkij!

marchhare292
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Thank you!!!

Postby marchhare292 » 2005-05-09, 20:56

Thanks so much for doing this...
May I ask, are you a native speaker of Icelandic or are you merely an L2 learner of it? How sure are you of those translations? (I don't want to imply that these are incorrect, only if I use them for my paper, I need to be sure that this is more or less Icelandic as someone on Iceland would produce it. Sorry.)
From what I've read so far, Icelandic usess two sets of relative pronouns, wh-pronouns (hvers, hverjum)and the completementizer "sem". I believe that "sem" allows so-called preposition stranding, while the wh-pronouns do not allow. Certainly the literature maintains that Icelandic allows stranding of prepositions. I found this sentence in an article:
Hérna geturðu seð húsið sem við bjuggum í.
The articles I read also seem to indicate that "sem" is the more typical relative pronoun, while the others (hvers, hverjum) are rarely used. Can you confirm this? Also, would the sentences you wrote also make sense with "sem" and a stranded preposition?
Thank you.
+Ulrike

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Nukalurk
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Postby Nukalurk » 2005-05-09, 21:02

You could send a PM to the member ruddi, who is a native speaker but he isn't here that often.

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JackFrost
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Postby JackFrost » 2005-05-09, 21:05

Amikeco wrote:You could send a PM to the member ruddi, who is a native speaker but he isn't here that often.

I highly recommend it.

Or to username: hildur

I cannot answer your questions. I'm just a learner. ;)
Neferuj paħujkij!

marchhare292
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Joined: 2005-05-04, 2:41

Postby marchhare292 » 2005-05-09, 21:06

Thanks. Unfortunately I am a little pressed for time at this point. I think I can make do with sentences I have gotten from articles and also rely on Faroese, which in this point is relatively similar to Icelandic. But thanks.

+Ulrike

marchhare292
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Postby marchhare292 » 2005-05-09, 21:24

Hmm, I have sent the messages anyways... I can always include the information later... it is an interesting topic. (And my paper is getting rather long.)
I really have to learn Icelandic, though. The University of Minnesota offers this great summer school program where you study in Iceland part of the time. After all this, I feel the need to go even more strongly. :wink:

Thanks for all the help.

+Ulrike

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Nukalurk
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Postby Nukalurk » 2005-05-09, 21:27

I wish you much fun and, of course, success! :)

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einhar
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Re: Icelandi

Postby einhar » 2005-08-19, 16:12

marchhare292 wrote:a) This is the Pied Piper of Hamlin. I go with the Pied Piper of Hamlin.
Þetta er maðurinn. Ég fer með manninum.
a) This is the Pied Piper of Hamlin with whom I go.
Þetta er maðurinn sem ég fer með.
b) This is the Pied Piper of Hamlin whom I go with .
Þetta er maðurinn sem ég fer með.

a) With whom do you go?
Með hverjum ferðu?
b) Whom do you go with?
Hverjum ferðu með? I can translate this like that, but this sentence is english built and therefore I think it is wrong!

This is a car. I drive in the car to school.
Þetta er bíll. Ég ek á bílnum í skóla.
a) This is the car in which I drive to school.
b) This is the car which I drive in to school.
c)This is the car that I drive to school in.
Þetta er bíllinn sem ég ek á í skóla. I will not try to change the Icelandic sentence in the way it is used in English, so a,b and c is the same translation from my point of wiew.

a) In which car do you drive?
b) Which car do you drive in?
Í hvaða bíl ekurðu?


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