SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

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Merlin
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Postby Merlin » 2008-06-27, 11:11

Here's the answer of the mystery, complete with historical explanations ! Takk fyrir :D

It doesn't help much that the only dictionary I have access to is an internet one - which means it isn't as complete as a big paper dictionary. It doesn't have "megin" as an adverb, but only as a noun. Long live forums like these where knowledge can be shared !

PS: Je vois que nous sommes principalement des francophones à nous intéresser à la langue islandaise.

:wink: Etrange phénomène !

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Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2008-06-27, 11:31

Merlin wrote: Long live forums like these where knowledge can be shared !


Að nota Unilang er einmitt mjög hjálpsamt, af því að maður getur spurt Íslendinga um málfræði og orðaforða. Mér finnst alltaf svo erfitt að finna góð svör á netinu, sérstaklega fyrir íslenskuna, nema hérna á Unilang. Við verðum bara að vera þolinmóð stundum af því þetta er spjall, og stundum getur ekki fólk svarað strax.

Takk Unilang!

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Postby Egein » 2008-06-27, 16:19

deardron wrote:
Merlin wrote:"hinum megin" really puzzles me. "hinum" can be the definite article (dative case), but "megin" is accusative or nominative.

It originates from the old language. Megin in this context originates from a contraction of þann veginn. It also had a dative form megum < þeim vegum. Most likely the original dative and accusative forms were confused at some stage of development and megin started being used with dative instead of megum (which is long out of use).

Anyway, in modern Icelandic megin is an adverb, so you really should not conjugate it ;)


People still use hinu megin, too. It seems Icelanders prefer set phrases for sides of things, as hins veginn (hinseginn) means on the other side (a genitive) but also gay if you pronounce the v...
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Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2008-06-27, 16:42

Gay? :shock:

Þá hljóma ég alltaf "hommalega", og ég get ekki hætt að frambera stafinn "v" (nú er ég bara vanur að tala svona... :? ).


Það skiptir engu máli alla vega : ég ER hommi...

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-11-03, 8:36

All of you learning Icelandic must be learning from somewhere. Where are you learning from? I'm interested in this language, but it's not popular enough to have a well known resource. Just a bunch of mildly know resources.
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-11-08, 4:36

ILuvEire wrote:All of you learning Icelandic must be learning from somewhere. Where are you learning from? I'm interested in this language, but it's not popular enough to have a well known resource. Just a bunch of mildly know resources.


I've bought TY Icelandic and it looks good. I hope to get a lot done this weekend.
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby ILuvEire » 2008-11-09, 5:36

ILuvEire wrote:
ILuvEire wrote:All of you learning Icelandic must be learning from somewhere. Where are you learning from? I'm interested in this language, but it's not popular enough to have a well known resource. Just a bunch of mildly know resources.


I've bought TY Icelandic and it looks good. I hope to get a lot done this weekend.


What is the difference between b̥ and p?
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-11-09, 9:33

ILuvEire wrote:All of you learning Icelandic must be learning from somewhere. Where are you learning from? I'm interested in this language, but it's not popular enough to have a well known resource. Just a bunch of mildly know resources.


Well, I've taken some Icelandic classes at university (as it is part of my degree). There are quite a few good books, like "Colloquial Icelandic", "Learning Icelandic", and there is also a very nice online course at http://www.icelandic.hi.is I've done a lot of self-studying wth various materials, and in my opinion it is especially important to do a lot of listening practice, so always buy the audio CDs that come with the textbooks, and you can also listen to Icelandic radio and TV online, for example at http://www.ruv.is :)
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby melinuxfool » 2009-10-01, 15:45

nighean-neonach wrote:
ILuvEire wrote:All of you learning Icelandic must be learning from somewhere. Where are you learning from? I'm interested in this language, but it's not popular enough to have a well known resource. Just a bunch of mildly know resources.


Well, I've taken some Icelandic classes at university (as it is part of my degree). There are quite a few good books, like "Colloquial Icelandic", "Learning Icelandic", and there is also a very nice online course at http://www.icelandic.hi.is I've done a lot of self-studying wth various materials, and in my opinion it is especially important to do a lot of listening practice, so always buy the audio CDs that come with the textbooks, and you can also listen to Icelandic radio and TV online, for example at http://www.ruv.is :)


Not by any means fluent in Icelandic yet, but the audio CDs can be a very good supplement for practice in the car. I spend about an hour and a half each weekday in the car (45 minutes to work one way), so I've been making use of the time to listen and practice.

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Lundgren » 2009-12-07, 18:48

What is the case order in Icelandic?
The English case order is 'nominative', 'accusative', 'dative', 'genitive'. The German, Latin and Swedish case order is 'nominative, genitive, dative, accusative'. (If we just count the Icelandic/German cases, I didn't know this myself until very recently).

Therefore I wonder, what is the original Icelandic case order?
Both the English and the Icelandic Wikipedia sources state the English order and so does this site.. Is this an anglicism or does Icelandic have the same case order as English? The Swedish Wikipedia article about Icelandic grammar has the English order, because the source is from an English site and the author is probably unaware of the Swedish/German/Latin system.

Thank you.

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby csjc » 2009-12-08, 3:47

Lundgren wrote:What is the case order in Icelandic?
The English case order is 'nominative', 'accusative', 'dative', 'genitive'. The German, Latin and Swedish case order is 'nominative, genitive, dative, accusative'. (If we just count the Icelandic/German cases, I didn't know this myself until very recently).

Therefore I wonder, what is the original Icelandic case order?
Both the English and the Icelandic Wikipedia sources state the English order and so does this site.. Is this an anglicism or does Icelandic have the same case order as English? The Swedish Wikipedia article about Icelandic grammar has the English order, because the source is from an English site and the author is probably unaware of the Swedish/German/Latin system.

Thank you.


My grammar reference (entirely in Icelandic), along with everything else I've seen (aside from a coursebook in German), use the English order. Icelanders traditionally learn this as a way to memorize case order:

(nom.) Hér er hestur
(acc.) Um hest
(dat.) Frá hesti
(gen.) Til hests
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Lundgren » 2009-12-08, 14:53

Thank you, i've also only seen that case order. Thanks for your help! :)

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby tomh » 2009-12-09, 14:12

I have a question about a certain use of pronouns. I have seen, occasionally, that a redundant pronoun will precede a declined noun, with the same case/gender as the noun itself. When/why does this occur?

Some examples:

"í honum Hirti mínum" (someone talking about their boyfriend, I forget the whole sentence)

"Ég er að læra íslensku af því að hún er málið hennar móður minnar."

There's a book out now called "Maturinn hennar Nönnu" as well.

Can someone explain why/when these pronouns need to be inserted?

Thanks!

Tom

Śrāmaṇera

Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2009-12-09, 15:14

I had exactly the same feeling when I was working in Iceland at the beginning ! Everytime someone was saying something like "veistu, ég var að tala við pabba hennar Ömmu og...". Why do they use genitive case + possessive? It still sounds very redundant to me now when I think about it. Can someone find an explanation for that ?

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby csjc » 2009-12-09, 20:03

Nejimakidori wrote:I had exactly the same feeling when I was working in Iceland at the beginning ! Everytime someone was saying something like "veistu, ég var að tala við pabba hennar Ömmu og...". Why do they use genitive case + possessive? It still sounds very redundant to me now when I think about it. Can someone find an explanation for that ?


I'm under the impression that it's simply an element of the language. While it seems redundant, it's in very common usage, especially in spoken language. It seems there's a tendency to reiterate pronoun+name in other situations (in dat. and acc.), too, for example: " ...þar sem var afmæli hjá henni Elínu", and "Við hlið mér er hún Jóhönnu".
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Merlin » 2009-12-13, 11:40

This is called proprial possession. It's a combination of nominal and pronominal possession (personal pronoun + noun instead of just the pronoun).
In Icelandic, this construction occurs with proper nouns and kinship terms (pabbi, ...).
It's very common for languages to treat nouns denoting an entity high in animacy (like individual persons and kin) differently from others.

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Egein » 2009-12-26, 22:33

We use these constructions to signify that the person is known to both speakers.

Ég var að tala við hana Hugrúnu - I was talking to Hugrún (who we both know)

Þetta var Hafsteinn hennar Hafdísar - This was Hafsteinn son of Hafdís (who we both know)

It makes things more familiar, like English "good old" but with people, I guess.
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Lundgren » 2010-01-16, 14:02

I’m wondering about the word ”than”. In Swedish, we say ”än jag” (than I) but many people also say ”än mig” (than me) which is incorrect but still used. I know it’s the same in English but most people say ”than me” anyway. I listened to Disney songs in Icelandic and the Genie in Aladdin says ”Þú átt engan betri vin en mig”. Is this correct Icelandic? It just seemed unlikely to me that that construction would be used in a language such as Icelandic.

The title is however called ”Vinur eins og ég”, and it’s ”som jag” in Swedish, ”like me” in English and ”som mig/meg” in Danish/Norwegian where it’s correct. Can someone enlighten me about the Icelandic rules? :)

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Egein » 2010-01-16, 18:04

Þú átt engan betri vin (acc.) en mig (acc.).

You have no better friend than me.

Anything else would not work, it is in accusative because the verb að eiga (to own) requires accusative.

cf.

þú hjálpar engum öðrum en mér - you help no one else than me.
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Lundgren » 2010-01-16, 19:52

Ah, okay, I understand, thank you very much for your answer. :)


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