SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby schnup » 2010-05-12, 8:11

Satsuma wrote:When an ð is at the end of a word, does it become devoiced?


You're probably talking about final obstruent devoicing (Auslautverhärtung)? As far as I know, this phenomenon is not observed in the north Germanic languages, so final /ð/ should be pronounced as [ð]. I've found rather conflicting information on this, my books all transcribe a final ð as voiced, but Wikipedia says this:

The dental fricatives [θ] and [ð] are allophones of a single phoneme. /θ/ is used word-initially, as in þak [θaːk] ('roof'), and before a voiceless consonant, as in maðkur [maθkʏr] ('worm'). [ð] is used intervocalically, as in iða [ɪːða] ('vortex') and word-finally, as in bað [paːð] ('bath'), although it can be devoiced to [θ] before pause. The phoneme /θ/ actually represents a voiceless alveolar non-sibilant fricative [θ̠] or [ð̠] when voiced.

and this in the table below:

before an unvoiced consonant and as the final sound
[θ] maðkur [ˈmaθkʏr̥] ('maggot'), það [θaːθ] ('it')

So, I went to listen to a spoken text sample, and it does seem to be devoiced word-finally!

http://www3.germanistik.uni-halle.de/pr ... en/025.htm

Let's see what the people living in Iceland have to say about it =oD
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One door, two doors!

Postby schnup » 2010-05-12, 20:16

Just came across this while struggling along with Icelandic, is 'dyr' (door) in Icelandic always in plural? Does it also mean "door" as in the usual doors you find in a house or building, or a metaphorical one?

How then do you say 'one door'?
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby csjc » 2010-05-12, 21:13

schnup wrote:
Satsuma wrote:When an ð is at the end of a word, does it become devoiced?


You're probably talking about final obstruent devoicing (Auslautverhärtung)? As far as I know, this phenomenon is not observed in the north Germanic languages, so final /ð/ should be pronounced as [ð]. I've found rather conflicting information on this, my books all transcribe a final ð as voiced, but Wikipedia says this:



Final ð is always voiced, I think you're just getting confused because a lot of Icelanders often almost omit the sound at the end of words... for example, það is very often pronounced closer to þa, with the tongue ending on the upper teeth having not yet pronounced or voiced the /ð/.

Also, that recording from Litli Prinsinn is by someone with a very noticeable foreign accent so it might not be the best example.

schnup wrote:Just came across this while struggling along with Icelandic, is 'dyr' (door) in Icelandic always in plural? Does it also mean "door" as in the usual doors you find in a house or building, or a metaphorical one?

How then do you say 'one door'?


It can mean both a physical door and metaphorical one... one door = (ein) dyr. For example, in the saying "þegar ein dyr lokast, opnast önnur", "when one door closes, another opens".

Hope that helps.
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Merlin » 2010-05-12, 21:26

There is also the word hurð, 'door', which can be used in the singular.

Looking on the net for a difference between hurð and dyr, I found this page : http://visindavefur.hi.is/svar.php?id=3973.
This makes sense. I'm too tired to check, but I bet that when a door is slammed, it is hurð that is used.
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby schnup » 2010-05-12, 23:31

Thanks for the replies! I
@csjc: ah okay maybe it was a german =oP
edit: i went back to the website, and yeah, the recording wasn't by a native speaker, i missed that

@merlin: thanks, it looks very informative, unfortunately my icelandic isn't that good yet, so it''ll take me a while to read that article, but google translate has gotten really good =oP
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Merlin » 2010-05-14, 21:31

In short, the article says that dyr refers to the door as an opening, a hole in the wall if you want - as in doorway, German Türöffnung, while hurð denotes the concrete board with handle, hinges etc which fills that space.
When you say close the door, it is not the wooden board that you close but the opening in the wall, so that loka/opna dyrunum is the preferred formulation, though loka/opna hurðinni is possible as a metonymy.

I did a very quick google search and found that indeed, when a door is slammed (skella), it is hurð that is used, as expected, though there was one hit with dyr.

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2010-05-25, 15:57

My two cents... of someone who hasnt spoken a word of Icelandic for about a year now.

I clearly recall my co-workers in Iceland saying often : Júlian, viltu loka hurðinni?
I seldom heard "dyr" being used in the school I was working in. Alhough I also heard "dyr" in different contexts, the wooden doors inside of the school were refered to as "hurð".

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby csjc » 2010-05-25, 18:59

Nejimakidori wrote:My two cents... of someone who hasnt spoken a word of Icelandic for about a year now.

I clearly recall my co-workers in Iceland saying often : Júlian, viltu loka hurðinni?
I seldom heard "dyr" being used in the school I was working in. Alhough I also heard "dyr" in different contexts, the wooden doors inside of the school were refered to as "hurð".


I've definitely seen that in use too.
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Gunna » 2010-06-01, 12:50

It's quite common mistake to say "loka hurðinni" it should be "loka dyrunum". "Skella hurðum" (slamming doors) makes total sense, if you slam someone to the floor in a fight you're slamming the person not the floor, that is the moving object not the stationary object being hit

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Kenny » 2010-06-29, 22:19

I recently became interested in learning this beautiful (in its written form at least, never really heard it spoken) language. My question is: where should I start? Which materials do you recommend? Any special advice in particular? Thanks :).

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2010-06-29, 23:17

I'd recommend you use Colloquial Icelandic, it's a really great book. :)
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2010-06-30, 10:03

You can also use http://icelandic.hi.is/. It's free to register and you can get a good grip of the basics.

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby ILuvEire » 2010-07-03, 16:21

Along with that, what's a good Icelandic reference grammar? Preferably in English, but I could do German or Danish if there's a better one. :)
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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Śrāmaṇera » 2010-07-03, 16:44


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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Kenny » 2010-07-06, 23:58

What's the f in flugvél, flugvöllur etc. pronounced like? [f]? [p]?

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby kasa » 2010-07-07, 0:05

It's [f] there.

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Kenny » 2010-07-07, 0:16

Oh, okay, so the "before l" thing only applies when it's within the word? Another question: is ð devoiced at the end of words?

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby kasa » 2010-07-07, 0:20

Yes, and also before (some?) other consonants, like in "nafn", where it's [p] too. As for an edh at the end of a word, it is devoiced unless a voiced consonant or a vowel follows.

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Kisa » 2011-04-19, 13:11

Hello everyone,

I am engaged to marry an American whose mother is Icelandic and we are sending a number of invitations to Iceland. I do know that women do not take their husbands' names; but rather use
First Name and Father's first name + dóttir. I have been advised that I should address these formal invitations like this,for example:

Fr. María Jóhansdottir og
Hr. Edvard Fridriksson

Do you all agree?

Also, I will be using Italic hand calligraphy and don't know how to write the Þ. Could any one recommend a site that would have examples of the Icelandic alphabet in cursive script?

Many thanks for your advice,

Kisa

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Re: SPURNINGAR / QUESTIONS

Postby Egein » 2011-04-19, 13:51

Hæ,

Be careful not to omit the accents; María Jóhannsdóttir and Edvard (or Eðvarð) Friðriksson (I'm assuming jóhan- was a mistake, but it could be spelled like that).

Note that frú and herra are very formal. I wouldn't do it because it sort of implies you've never met the people or don't know them. But if these are people you've never met before, then I guess it's fine.

Here is an example of written Icelandic:
http://www.skjaladagur.is/2009/images/501-1_10004.jpg
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