księżyc - Deutsch

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby księżycowy » 2019-03-26, 23:02

Yes, in response to "danke".

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby h34 » 2019-03-26, 23:54

In and around Hamburg, gerne seems to be a little bit more common (and perhaps more informal) than bitte, but I agree with Kevin, there isn't really a difference. A more emphasized version of gerne is Gern geschehen.

In Northern Germany, you can also hear Da nicht für!(lit. 'There not for', meaning 'Not for that', similar to Polish Nie ma za co).

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby dEhiN » 2019-03-27, 0:35

If both generally seem to work, I wonder why some native speakers told Vijay that "bitte" is only used by foreigners. He even mentioned that an elderly person told him that, so Vijay suggested that maybe things have changed and textbooks haven't caught up?

PS. I know księżycowy said "me and Vijay", but it was in a group chat.
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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-03-27, 1:29

I think they were just prescriptivist and unaware of regional variation. :P

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby kevin » 2019-03-27, 7:12

h34 wrote:In and around Hamburg, gerne seems to be a little bit more common (and perhaps more informal) than bitte

Interesting. If anything, I would have considered "gerne" more formal. So it looks like the difference is really just regional preference.

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby Car » 2019-03-27, 10:00

I'd agree, it seems more regional than anything.
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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby linguoboy » 2019-03-27, 12:42

As I suspected, the Atlas zur deutschen Alltagssprache is on the case: http://www.atlas-alltagssprache.de/runde-2/f02/.
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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby księżycowy » 2019-03-31, 16:57

So, I'm on to one of the fun parts of German grammar, the perfect tense. :partyhat:

I'm having trouble with determining which verbs take "haben" and which take "sein". And also which end in -t and which end in -en.

Any suggestions/tips/tricks?

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-03-31, 17:57

I'll just repeat what I already told you. :P

My understanding is basically as follows: Most verbs take haben. Sein generally goes with verbs that have to do with motion. The regular pattern for participles is to end in -t; -en is irregular. I think sein-verbs take -en participles for the most part, but I might be remembering wrong. The ones ending with -en usually have other irregularities, too.

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby księżycowy » 2019-03-31, 18:09

vijayjohn wrote:I'll just repeat what I already told you. :P

Gee, thanks..... :pff:

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-03-31, 18:24

It might save other people some effort. Maybe. :whistle:

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-01, 16:15

vijayjohn wrote:My understanding is basically as follows: Most verbs take haben. Sein generally goes with verbs that have to do with motion.

I would say motion, location, or change of state.

Motion: gehen, kommen, fahren, reisen, schreiten, fallen, etc.
Location: sein, bleiben. (In the South, also stehen, sitzen, liegen.)
Change of state: werden, aufwachen, passieren, geschehen, einschlafen (but einnicken also with haben), vorkommen (but not ereignen), etc.

As you can see from the example of schlafen, derived verbs may or may not take the same auxiliary as the base verb. (Schlafen does take sein in a few Southern varieties (chiefly in the Tyrol, IIRC), but I think most speakers would find that odd.) Obviously, transitivity plays an important role here.

vijayjohn wrote:The regular pattern for participles is to end in -t; -en is irregular. I think sein-verbs take -en participles for the most part, but I might be remembering wrong. The ones ending with -en usually have other irregularities, too.

I would simplify this by saying that (e)-t is the suffix for weak verbs (regular and irregular) and -en for strong verbs.

There are a handful of exceptions, chiefly strong verbs which have been partially regularised. The only one I recall offhand is backen, whose strong past buk is pretty rare these days.
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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby księżycowy » 2019-04-01, 17:05

And, if I understand well enough, strong verbs are those that have (usually vowel) changes
(like schreiben -> geschrieben)

and weak verbs don't
(like hören -> gehört)

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby linguoboy » 2019-04-01, 17:29

księżycowy wrote:And, if I understand well enough, strong verbs are those that have (usually vowel) changes
(like schreiben -> geschrieben)

and weak verbs don't
(like hören -> gehört)

Naturally it's a bit more complicated than that.

The vowel changes of "strong verbs" go back to the ablaut classes of Common Germanic. Weak verbs can exhibit vowel changes as well, but these stem from different causes.

Take bringen (pp gebracht) for instance. As I understand it, the addition of the dental suffix caused not only the change of *g to *h but also the lowering of the stem vowel, so *bringtaz > *brinhtaz > *branhtaz > *brāhtaz (with subsequent loss of nasal before *h) > gebracht.

And then there's a whole subclass of "Rückumlautverben". These are verbs derived by means of the umlauting suffix *-(i)janą where umlaut has been blocked by the dental suffix. So, for instance, rennen (< *rannijaną), past tense rannte (but rennte in the subjunctive!), pp. gerannt.

Fortunately, we're talking about a relatively modest number of verbs here. In general, if there's a change of vowel in the stem, you can assume you're dealing with a strong verb.
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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby księżycowy » 2019-04-01, 18:29

Of course it a bit more complicated. It always is. :P

Danke, Linguoboy.

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby kevin » 2019-04-01, 21:20

linguoboy wrote:but einnicken also with haben

Huh? I never heard this, so it feels just wrong to me. The English Wiktionary seems to have it with "haben" (and only with "haben", so I assume it's just an error), but Duden and the German Wiktionary don't.

Do you know where "haben" is used, if this is a regional thing?

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-04-02, 1:51

I knew it couldn't be simple enough for me to actually remember it all off the top of my head! :lol: Thanks, linguoboy!

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby księżycowy » 2019-05-29, 20:44

So, I've been reviewing my vocabulary and working on some Michel Thomas since the last time I posted here. I hope to get to Begegnungen this weekend though.

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-06-01, 5:45

Do you still intend to post your answers to the exercises in Begegnungen in this thread, like you used to? If you do, maybe some of us can help you with them like we used to, too. :)

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Re: księżyc - Deutsch

Postby księżycowy » 2019-06-01, 11:18

I intend to scan them in from the book, rather than retype them, but yes.


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