Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby h34 » 2020-12-22, 0:31

md0 wrote:Is there a simple answer about how to pronounce the <r> in words like gerne, durch, Stern? Are [ʁ] and [ɐ] in free variation there?

Yes, I would say they are in free variation, depending on the region. In addition to the link Car added, this might be helpful as well:
https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/38062/what-is-the-difference-between-fricative-uvular-r-%CA%81-and-fairly-open-unrounded

Where final -r- is vocalized, the 'degree of vocalization' and the quality of the resulting vowel differs from region to region. I'm obviously not an expert, so these are just some of my impressions:

In the northern half of Germany (including the few places where initial r- is still pronounced as a trill), syllable-final -r is usually vocalized, sometimes merging with the preceding vowel, often lengthening an originally short vowel, e.g. 'hart' [ha:t] or [hɑːt]; 'Stern' [ʃtɛɐn] or [ʃtɛːn].
The pronunciation of the suffix -er varies between something like [ʌ] in parts of Westfalia (the Ruhrgebiet) and in the North-West (Bremen), [ɐ] further eastwards (Hannover, Hamburg, Berlin), and a 'brighter' pronunciation, perhaps [ɛ] or even [æ], along the Baltic Sea coastline (anywhere between Flensburg on the Danish border and the island of Rügen).

In the Rhineland, final -r is usually vocalized as well: 'Stern' [ʃteɐn](?), but whenever it's followed by -t, it is pronounced as [x]: 'hart' [haxt]. This means that 'Art' and 'acht' sound very similar in the Rhineland. Maybe they can even be regarded as homophones.

Both in the South-West (Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz, Baden-Württemberg) and in Saxony, the letter -r- sounds like a uvular fricative in any position; perhaps just slightly vocalized in final position but always distinguishable from 'proper' vowels. People who are more familiar with these varieties would perhaps disagree, though.

In the southern parts of Bavaria and in the east of Austria (Niederösterreich, Vienna, …), final -r is usually vocalized. In these areas, vocalized -r often changes the quality of the preceding vowel in many different ways.

German-speaking countries and regions where -r- is generally pronounced as a trill and not vocalized include Switzerland (all regions?), Liechtenstein and some western parts of Austria (Vorarlberg, Tirol); further north, parts of Franken (Nuremberg). In final position, the trill may sometimes be reduced to a tap (or a flap?).

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby md0 » 2020-12-22, 1:56

Danke euch beiden!

Seems like I was rightfully confused, it varies a lot. I noticed that people don't understand me when I say <gerne> /gɛɐnə/ and the like. They seem to follow me better if I say /gɛʁnə/. It could have been that they expected to hear /gɛ:nə/ instead, if I can extrapolate from h34's example for Stern (northeast Germany, Berlin/Potsdam). It can also be that my /ɐ/ was too long though, vowel length still trips me up in production.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby h34 » 2020-12-22, 6:43

md0 wrote:They seem to follow me better if I say /gɛʁnə/.

Yes, /gɛʁnə/ (and generally the pronunciation of final -r as /ʁ/) is probably the most widespread variety, while /gɛ:nə/ is more specific for the northern and north-eastern regions, i. e. north of Berlin; in Berlin it varies between /gɛɐnə/ and /gɛʁnə/.

On tatoeba.org some users have uploaded audio recordings of gern/gerne in the context of different example sentences:
https://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/search?query=gerne+

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2020-12-22, 12:04

Car wrote:
/r/ unter anderem nach den kurzen Vokalen i, ä, a, ü, ö, u, o am Wortende oder vor einem Konsonanten, z. B. [vɪr] für „wirr“ und nicht [vɪɐ̯].[1] In anderen Fällen wird meist ein abgeschwächtes a [ɐ̯] angegeben, wie bei „Tür“, „wir“ oder „Mutter“.

Dunno about that.

That sounds strange. I don't think I have any difference in the /r/ between "wir" and "wirr", only in the vowel.

h34 wrote:Both in the South-West (Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz, Baden-Württemberg) and in Saxony, the letter -r- sounds like a uvular fricative in any position; perhaps just slightly vocalized in final position but always distinguishable from 'proper' vowels. People who are more familiar with these varieties would perhaps disagree, though.

Isn't it vocalised the same as further north in Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz and the South Franconian parts of Baden-Württemberg?

In Swabian and Saxonian accents, in the positions where it would be vocalised, it's further back than the normal uvular fricative. Even when reading a Standard German text, it's different from it for me, though I can't really tell in which way. The fully dialectal sound I have seen transcribed as [ʕ̞] (for which Wikipedia mentions [ɑ̯] as an alternative symbol, so I guess it's still kind of vocalised, just to a different vowel?).

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2020-12-22, 12:45

kevin wrote:
Car wrote:
/r/ unter anderem nach den kurzen Vokalen i, ä, a, ü, ö, u, o am Wortende oder vor einem Konsonanten, z. B. [vɪr] für „wirr“ und nicht [vɪɐ̯].[1] In anderen Fällen wird meist ein abgeschwächtes a [ɐ̯] angegeben, wie bei „Tür“, „wir“ oder „Mutter“.

Dunno about that.

That sounds strange. I don't think I have any difference in the /r/ between "wir" and "wirr", only in the vowel.


It does sound different, but I think it might just be the preceding vowel that changes perception.

h34 wrote:Both in the South-West (Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz, Baden-Württemberg) and in Saxony, the letter -r- sounds like a uvular fricative in any position; perhaps just slightly vocalized in final position but always distinguishable from 'proper' vowels. People who are more familiar with these varieties would perhaps disagree, though.

Isn't it vocalised the same as further north in Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz and the South Franconian parts of Baden-Württemberg?

In Swabian and Saxonian accents, in the positions where it would be vocalised, it's further back than the normal uvular fricative. Even when reading a Standard German text, it's different from it for me, though I can't really tell in which way. The fully dialectal sound I have seen transcribed as [ʕ̞] (for which Wikipedia mentions [ɑ̯] as an alternative symbol, so I guess it's still kind of vocalised, just to a different vowel?).

It definitely sounds different in Saxonian and I think Swabian, too. To me, it sounds more like "or".
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby h34 » 2020-12-22, 14:37

kevin wrote:
h34 wrote:Both in the South-West (Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz, Baden-Württemberg) and in Saxony, the letter -r- sounds like a uvular fricative in any position; perhaps just slightly vocalized in final position but always distinguishable from 'proper' vowels. People who are more familiar with these varieties would perhaps disagree, though.

Isn't it vocalised the same as further north in Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz and the South Franconian parts of Baden-Württemberg?

In Swabian and Saxonian accents, in the positions where it would be vocalised, it's further back than the normal uvular fricative. Even when reading a Standard German text, it's different from it for me, though I can't really tell in which way. The fully dialectal sound I have seen transcribed as [ʕ̞] (for which Wikipedia mentions [ɑ̯] as an alternative symbol, so I guess it's still kind of vocalised, just to a different vowel?).

car wrote: It definitely sounds different in Saxonian and I think Swabian, too. To me, it sounds more like "or".


Maybe I didn't pay enough attention to the difference between the pronunciation of -(e)r in word-final position (the -or sound, perhaps a reduced vowel) and the pronunciation in syllable-final position before a consonant, especially before a voiceless stop, where it sounds more like a (reduced) consonant to me. Of course it could just be my perception. In this video, Winfried Kretschmann seems to vocalize word-final -r, but doesn't his pronunciation of syllable-final r before stops like /k/ (as in wirklich and bewirken, between 2:35 and 2:40) sound more like /ʁ/ or even a uvular trill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms8vpCVVivM

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2020-12-22, 17:28

h34 wrote:[
Maybe I didn't pay enough attention to the difference between the pronunciation of -(e)r in word-final position (the -or sound, perhaps a reduced vowel) and the pronunciation in syllable-final position before a consonant, especially before a voiceless stop, where it sounds more like a (reduced) consonant to me. Of course it could just be my perception. In this video, Winfried Kretschmann seems to vocalize word-final -r, but doesn't his pronunciation of syllable-final r before stops like /k/ (as in wirklich and bewirken, between 2:35 and 2:40) sound more like /ʁ/ or even a uvular trill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms8vpCVVivM

I definitely agree.

BTW, I asked my father about it and he thinks the r in wirr is more like the r in Regen than the one in wir. The only question is which region you could ascribe him to. In the past, he didn't want to take part in the Sprachatlas because he didn't know what to put as home.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2020-12-22, 21:35

I agree about "wirklich bewirken". However, this seems like an exception, most of his /r/ before another consonant are different. For example, there are many instances of "Partei" and "Parlament". Even if we assume that it's only /rk/ specicially, "stärkste" at 0:39 sounds different from that "wirklich bewirken".

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2020-12-23, 9:57

Yeah, I agree.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby md0 » 2020-12-23, 13:49

On another topic, what are contemporary attitudes regarding re-spelling loanwords in German?
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2020-12-23, 21:25

People tend to mock them, in my experience. I don't think any of the re-spellings of loans during the spelling reform really caught on. People act as if you're ignorant. With the high amount of people who genuinely can't spell properly, that is a problem.
Also, there are just way too many nowadays for that. Just look at all the Anglicisms that entered the language this year alone.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby md0 » 2021-05-18, 8:29

I was reading this and I found this expression interesting: " jeder ordentliche märkische Standesbeamte"

Apparently that's a way to refer to Brandenburg and it alludes to the HRE entity Mark of Brandenburg.

I am curious about the connotations here. Is it supposed to sound archaic, does it emphasise bureaucracy, is it comedic, things like that. Or is it a near synonym even in contemporary use?
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2021-05-20, 15:43

Searching around a bit, I'd say it's just a contemporary use in some contexts, which is especially attractive for journalists as they love having synonyms available. I wouldn't expect people to use it in daily conversations, but for names of things, that's definitely an option or in journalism so you don't have to repeat the same words/ names all over again.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby linguoboy » 2021-05-20, 16:48

Interesting. It was my impression that märkisch was the usual adjective. It has the advantage of being half the length of brandenburgisch. I guess there is the issue of ambiguity due to the existence of a Grafschaft Mark and an eponymous Märkischer Kreis in Westfalen, but the two entities are rarely referred to in the same contexts so this is almost never a problem. (Cf. "Panhandle" in USAmerican English. Several states have a "panhandle", but it's almost always clear from context which one you're actually talking about.)
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby md0 » 2021-05-20, 17:24

Thanks Car and linguoboy. I googled it with a few more nouns to see what kind of results come up, and they match what Car wrote.

I'm not sure it's the usual adjective like linguoboy suspects though. I didn't encounter any official use yet (e.g. my bank is the Mittelbrandenburgische Sparkasse). It looks like it's not a perfect synonym. E.g. there's this like in the German Wikipedia article for the "Markish dialect":
Neben der Bezeichnung „märkische Dialekte“ steht auch die Bezeichnung brandenburgische Dialekte, was allerdings politisch, nicht linguistisch definiert und daher nicht deckungsgleich ist: Das Mittelpommersche im östlichen Vorpommern ist in diesem Sinne zwar (nord)märkisch, aber nicht brandenburgisch, während die Dialekte im südlichen Brandenburg sowie die Umgangssprache des Berliner Umlandes brandenburgisch sind, aber nicht märkisch (niederdeutsch).
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2021-05-20, 20:23

linguoboy wrote:Interesting. It was my impression that märkisch was the usual adjective.

I'm not a local, so I'm not familiar with how people use it, but more the result of a quick search and general language use.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby md0 » 2021-10-29, 10:04

Hallo Leute :)

Eine sprachwissenschaftliche Frage...

Ich bin gerade auf der Suche nach deskriptive Grammatiken des aktuellen deutschen Dialekts (in Deutschland, nicht in Österreich und der Schweiz). Kennen Sie solche Bücher oder Artikel (in Englisch oder Deutsch)? Ich möchte z.B. Berlinerisch Phonologie und Morphologie studieren, denn manchmal sind die Berliner schwierig zu verstehen.

Ich habe derzeit "The German-speaking world : a practical introduction to sociolinguistic issues / Stevenson, Patrick *1954-* (2018)" in der Staatsbibliothek gefunden.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2021-10-29, 16:37

md0 wrote:Hallo Leute :)

Eine sprachwissenschaftliche Frage...

Ich bin gerade auf der Suche nach deskriptiven Grammatiken der aktuellen deutschen Dialekte* (in Deutschland, nicht in Österreich und der Schweiz). Kennen Sie solche Bücher oder Artikel (auf Englisch oder Deutsch)? Ich möchte z.B. berlinerische Phonologie und Morphologie studieren, denn manchmal sind die Berliner schwierig zu verstehen.

Ich habe derzeit "The German-speaking world : a practical introduction to sociolinguistic issues / Stevenson, Patrick *1954-* (2018)" in der Staatsbibliothek gefunden.


* sprachlich richtig, würde aber bedeuten, dass es nur einen deutschen Dialekt gibt.

Inhaltlich kann ich dir leider nicht weiterhelfen.

In Internetforen ist es allgemein unüblich, sich zu siezen und rein vom Sprachniveau passt es auch nicht zu "Hallo Leute". ;)
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby md0 » 2021-10-29, 17:24

Danke für die Korrekturen, Car!

In Internetforen ist es allgemein unüblich, sich zu siezen und rein vom Sprachniveau passt es auch nicht zu "Hallo Leute". ;)


Ach, das war ganz mein Fehler. Ich habe vergessen, dass "Sie" nicht die 2. Person Plural ist, wie "you" auf Englisch oder "εσείς" auf Griechisch. Was passt hier besser, "kennt ihr solche" oder "kennt jemand solche"? "Jemand" klingt für mich besser.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2021-10-30, 18:12

md0 wrote:Danke für die Korrekturen, Car!

In Internetforen ist es allgemein unüblich, sich zu siezen und rein vom Sprachniveau passt es auch nicht zu "Hallo Leute". ;)


Ach, das war ganz mein Fehler. Ich habe vergessen, dass "Sie" nicht die 2. Person Plural ist, wie "you" auf Englisch oder "εσείς" auf Griechisch. Was passt hier besser, "kennt ihr solche" oder "kennt jemand solche"? "Jemand" klingt für mich besser.

Beides geht, im ersten Fall sprichst du die Leute direkt an, im zweiten Fall ist es allgemeiner formuliert. Ich meine, "jemand" ist deswegen häufiger, wenn man nicht schon vorher direkt Leute angesprochen hat bzw. die Gruppe begrenzt ist.
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