Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Moderator: kevin

h34
Posts: 1118
Joined: 2014-12-16, 20:15
Gender: male

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby h34 » 2020-12-22, 0:31

md0 wrote:Is there a simple answer about how to pronounce the <r> in words like gerne, durch, Stern? Are [ʁ] and [ɐ] in free variation there?

Yes, I would say they are in free variation, depending on the region. In addition to the link Car added, this might be helpful as well:
https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/38062/what-is-the-difference-between-fricative-uvular-r-%CA%81-and-fairly-open-unrounded

Where final -r- is vocalized, the 'degree of vocalization' and the quality of the resulting vowel differs from region to region. I'm obviously not an expert, so these are just some of my impressions:

In the northern half of Germany (including the few places where initial r- is still pronounced as a trill), syllable-final -r is usually vocalized, sometimes merging with the preceding vowel, often lengthening an originally short vowel, e.g. 'hart' [ha:t] or [hɑːt]; 'Stern' [ʃtɛɐn] or [ʃtɛːn].
The pronunciation of the suffix -er varies between something like [ʌ] in parts of Westfalia (the Ruhrgebiet) and in the North-West (Bremen), [ɐ] further eastwards (Hannover, Hamburg, Berlin), and a 'brighter' pronunciation, perhaps [ɛ] or even [æ], along the Baltic Sea coastline (anywhere between Flensburg on the Danish border and the island of Rügen).

In the Rhineland, final -r is usually vocalized as well: 'Stern' [ʃteɐn](?), but whenever it's followed by -t, it is pronounced as [x]: 'hart' [haxt]. This means that 'Art' and 'acht' sound very similar in the Rhineland. Maybe they can even be regarded as homophones.

Both in the South-West (Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz, Baden-Württemberg) and in Saxony, the letter -r- sounds like a uvular fricative in any position; perhaps just slightly vocalized in final position but always distinguishable from 'proper' vowels. People who are more familiar with these varieties would perhaps disagree, though.

In the southern parts of Bavaria and in the east of Austria (Niederösterreich, Vienna, …), final -r is usually vocalized. In these areas, vocalized -r often changes the quality of the preceding vowel in many different ways.

German-speaking countries and regions where -r- is generally pronounced as a trill and not vocalized include Switzerland (all regions?), Liechtenstein and some western parts of Austria (Vorarlberg, Tirol); further north, parts of Franken (Nuremberg). In final position, the trill may sometimes be reduced to a tap (or a flap?).
Thanks for any corrections!

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7815
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby md0 » 2020-12-22, 1:56

Danke euch beiden!

Seems like I was rightfully confused, it varies a lot. I noticed that people don't understand me when I say <gerne> /gɛɐnə/ and the like. They seem to follow me better if I say /gɛʁnə/. It could have been that they expected to hear /gɛ:nə/ instead, if I can extrapolate from h34's example for Stern (northeast Germany, Berlin/Potsdam). It can also be that my /ɐ/ was too long though, vowel length still trips me up in production.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)
Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)Elementary Finnish (fi)Netherlands Dutch (nl)

h34
Posts: 1118
Joined: 2014-12-16, 20:15
Gender: male

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby h34 » 2020-12-22, 6:43

md0 wrote:They seem to follow me better if I say /gɛʁnə/.

Yes, /gɛʁnə/ (and generally the pronunciation of final -r as /ʁ/) is probably the most widespread variety, while /gɛ:nə/ is more specific for the northern and north-eastern regions, i. e. north of Berlin; in Berlin it varies between /gɛɐnə/ and /gɛʁnə/.

On tatoeba.org some users have uploaded audio recordings of gern/gerne in the context of different example sentences:
https://tatoeba.org/deu/sentences/search?query=gerne+
Thanks for any corrections!

kevin
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2073
Joined: 2012-03-29, 11:07
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2020-12-22, 12:04

Car wrote:
/r/ unter anderem nach den kurzen Vokalen i, ä, a, ü, ö, u, o am Wortende oder vor einem Konsonanten, z. B. [vɪr] für „wirr“ und nicht [vɪɐ̯].[1] In anderen Fällen wird meist ein abgeschwächtes a [ɐ̯] angegeben, wie bei „Tür“, „wir“ oder „Mutter“.

Dunno about that.

That sounds strange. I don't think I have any difference in the /r/ between "wir" and "wirr", only in the vowel.

h34 wrote:Both in the South-West (Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz, Baden-Württemberg) and in Saxony, the letter -r- sounds like a uvular fricative in any position; perhaps just slightly vocalized in final position but always distinguishable from 'proper' vowels. People who are more familiar with these varieties would perhaps disagree, though.

Isn't it vocalised the same as further north in Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz and the South Franconian parts of Baden-Württemberg?

In Swabian and Saxonian accents, in the positions where it would be vocalised, it's further back than the normal uvular fricative. Even when reading a Standard German text, it's different from it for me, though I can't really tell in which way. The fully dialectal sound I have seen transcribed as [ʕ̞] (for which Wikipedia mentions [ɑ̯] as an alternative symbol, so I guess it's still kind of vocalised, just to a different vowel?).

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 10735
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2020-12-22, 12:45

kevin wrote:
Car wrote:
/r/ unter anderem nach den kurzen Vokalen i, ä, a, ü, ö, u, o am Wortende oder vor einem Konsonanten, z. B. [vɪr] für „wirr“ und nicht [vɪɐ̯].[1] In anderen Fällen wird meist ein abgeschwächtes a [ɐ̯] angegeben, wie bei „Tür“, „wir“ oder „Mutter“.

Dunno about that.

That sounds strange. I don't think I have any difference in the /r/ between "wir" and "wirr", only in the vowel.


It does sound different, but I think it might just be the preceding vowel that changes perception.

h34 wrote:Both in the South-West (Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz, Baden-Württemberg) and in Saxony, the letter -r- sounds like a uvular fricative in any position; perhaps just slightly vocalized in final position but always distinguishable from 'proper' vowels. People who are more familiar with these varieties would perhaps disagree, though.

Isn't it vocalised the same as further north in Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz and the South Franconian parts of Baden-Württemberg?

In Swabian and Saxonian accents, in the positions where it would be vocalised, it's further back than the normal uvular fricative. Even when reading a Standard German text, it's different from it for me, though I can't really tell in which way. The fully dialectal sound I have seen transcribed as [ʕ̞] (for which Wikipedia mentions [ɑ̯] as an alternative symbol, so I guess it's still kind of vocalised, just to a different vowel?).

It definitely sounds different in Saxonian and I think Swabian, too. To me, it sounds more like "or".
Please correct my mistakes!

h34
Posts: 1118
Joined: 2014-12-16, 20:15
Gender: male

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby h34 » 2020-12-22, 14:37

kevin wrote:
h34 wrote:Both in the South-West (Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz, Baden-Württemberg) and in Saxony, the letter -r- sounds like a uvular fricative in any position; perhaps just slightly vocalized in final position but always distinguishable from 'proper' vowels. People who are more familiar with these varieties would perhaps disagree, though.

Isn't it vocalised the same as further north in Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz and the South Franconian parts of Baden-Württemberg?

In Swabian and Saxonian accents, in the positions where it would be vocalised, it's further back than the normal uvular fricative. Even when reading a Standard German text, it's different from it for me, though I can't really tell in which way. The fully dialectal sound I have seen transcribed as [ʕ̞] (for which Wikipedia mentions [ɑ̯] as an alternative symbol, so I guess it's still kind of vocalised, just to a different vowel?).

car wrote: It definitely sounds different in Saxonian and I think Swabian, too. To me, it sounds more like "or".


Maybe I didn't pay enough attention to the difference between the pronunciation of -(e)r in word-final position (the -or sound, perhaps a reduced vowel) and the pronunciation in syllable-final position before a consonant, especially before a voiceless stop, where it sounds more like a (reduced) consonant to me. Of course it could just be my perception. In this video, Winfried Kretschmann seems to vocalize word-final -r, but doesn't his pronunciation of syllable-final r before stops like /k/ (as in wirklich and bewirken, between 2:35 and 2:40) sound more like /ʁ/ or even a uvular trill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms8vpCVVivM
Thanks for any corrections!

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 10735
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2020-12-22, 17:28

h34 wrote:[
Maybe I didn't pay enough attention to the difference between the pronunciation of -(e)r in word-final position (the -or sound, perhaps a reduced vowel) and the pronunciation in syllable-final position before a consonant, especially before a voiceless stop, where it sounds more like a (reduced) consonant to me. Of course it could just be my perception. In this video, Winfried Kretschmann seems to vocalize word-final -r, but doesn't his pronunciation of syllable-final r before stops like /k/ (as in wirklich and bewirken, between 2:35 and 2:40) sound more like /ʁ/ or even a uvular trill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms8vpCVVivM

I definitely agree.

BTW, I asked my father about it and he thinks the r in wirr is more like the r in Regen than the one in wir. The only question is which region you could ascribe him to. In the past, he didn't want to take part in the Sprachatlas because he didn't know what to put as home.
Please correct my mistakes!

kevin
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2073
Joined: 2012-03-29, 11:07
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2020-12-22, 21:35

I agree about "wirklich bewirken". However, this seems like an exception, most of his /r/ before another consonant are different. For example, there are many instances of "Partei" and "Parlament". Even if we assume that it's only /rk/ specicially, "stärkste" at 0:39 sounds different from that "wirklich bewirken".

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 10735
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2020-12-23, 9:57

Yeah, I agree.
Please correct my mistakes!

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7815
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby md0 » 2020-12-23, 13:49

On another topic, what are contemporary attitudes regarding re-spelling loanwords in German?
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)
Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)Elementary Finnish (fi)Netherlands Dutch (nl)

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 10735
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2020-12-23, 21:25

People tend to mock them, in my experience. I don't think any of the re-spellings of loans during the spelling reform really caught on. People act as if you're ignorant. With the high amount of people who genuinely can't spell properly, that is a problem.
Also, there are just way too many nowadays for that. Just look at all the Anglicisms that entered the language this year alone.
Please correct my mistakes!


Return to “German (Deutsch)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest