Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Moderator: kevin

langmon
Posts: 608
Joined: 2018-10-23, 17:51
Gender: male

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby langmon » 2018-12-29, 12:29

xBlackHeartx wrote:Wikipedia claims that low German is actually part of a dialectal continuum with other languages in the region, including Dutch interestingly enough (of course, Wikipedia isn't really the best source for anything).

Fully agree on WP not being the best source for anything.
But in that case, they do have a point. Some people would go as far as even calling Standard German and Standard Dutch a single language. Because they wouldn't base their "language or dialect" point of view on geographical borders.

Whatever the case may be...
Lower German a.k.a. Plattdeutsch has more than a single variant. But as for (especially) the one spoken in a few Bundesländer (I think in those that are very near to the Netherlands), it and Standard (!) Dutch are surprisingly similar. The mutual intelligibility (Platt <-> NL) is directly comparable to the one of Dutch and Afrikaans.
this is a reboot

kevin
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2026
Joined: 2012-03-29, 11:07
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2018-12-29, 12:45

Car wrote:I've never heard [dɛʀ] IRL, only once on TV, but that was a guy switching from Swabian (?) to standard German, so it might have been either influenced by that or a hypercorrection. kevin should know.
I pronounce it like [deɐ̯] or whatever this is.

Figuring out the different kinds of 'r's isn't my strength, but the most common Swabian pronunciation of "der" is something like [d̥ʕ̞] (unstressed) or [d̥ɛːʕ̞] (stressed/demonstrative). In some regions, and especially for older speakers, [r] exists, but I'm unsure about [ʀ].

Quite the contrary, they don't use it in the south and it's very much part of the German German standard pronunciation.

That's not quite right either. As far as I know, "wichtig" and "wichtiger" are pronounced like...

..."wichtich" and "wichtiger" somewhere in the North
..."wichtich" and "wichticher" in Swabia
..."wichtig" and "wichtiger" in Switzerland

I'm not aware of any region using "wichtig"/"wichticher", but different regions will use different combinations and it doesn't look like a North/South thing in this specific case.

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 10523
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-12-29, 17:16

kevin wrote:..."wichtich" and "wichtiger" somewhere in the North
..."wichtich" and "wichticher" in Swabia
..."wichtig" and "wichtiger" in Switzerland

I'm not aware of any region using "wichtig"/"wichticher", but different regions will use different combinations and it doesn't look like a North/South thing in this specific case.


I can confirm the first for large parts of the north and west, at least.
Please correct my mistakes!

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23448
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby linguoboy » 2018-12-29, 18:46

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:But in that case, they do have a point. Some people would go as far as even calling Standard German and Standard Dutch a single language.

Can you actually cite anyone saying that?

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Whatever the case may be...
Lower German a.k.a. Plattdeutsch has more than a single variant. But as for (especially) the one spoken in a few Bundesländer (I think in those that are very near to the Netherlands), it and Standard (!) Dutch are surprisingly similar. The mutual intelligibility (Platt <-> NL) is directly comparable to the one of Dutch and Afrikaans.

Sources?

The grammar of Afrikaans is fairly different from both Standard Dutch and Low Saxon--so much so it's even been claimed to be a creole. But phonologically it's still pretty close whereas Low Saxon is quite distinct.

(I read Dutch and Low Saxon well although I don't speak either of them. I see a lot of Afrikaans at work though I'm mainly just skimming works for bibliographical information.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

langmon
Posts: 608
Joined: 2018-10-23, 17:51
Gender: male

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby langmon » 2018-12-29, 20:01

linguoboy wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:But in that case, they do have a point. Some people would go as far as even calling Standard German and Standard Dutch a single language.
Can you actually cite anyone saying that?
Ich kann mich nicht daran erinnern, etwas gelesen zu haben, in dem das so, wortwörtlich, und 1:1 stand. Aber es gibt immer wieder Menschen, die einfach mal darüber sprechen, dass sie zwei verschiedene Sprachvarianten nicht als getrennte Sprachen ansehen, nur weil bestimmte politische Grenzen eben so und nicht anders verlaufen.

Wenn man dann auch noch aus deren Texten klar und deutlich herauslesen kann, dass sie auch Deutsch und Niederländisch als eine einzige Sprache ansehen (selbst wenn beide nicht wörtlich genannt wurden), dann wäre die Frage wegem dem Zitat darüber beantwortet. Noch eine kleine Randbemerkung: ich habe nur von "some" gesprochen, as in "some people", nicht von "some linguists".
Last edited by langmon on 2018-12-29, 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
this is a reboot

langmon
Posts: 608
Joined: 2018-10-23, 17:51
Gender: male

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby langmon » 2018-12-29, 20:08

linguoboy wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Whatever the case may be...
Lower German a.k.a. Plattdeutsch has more than a single variant. But as for (especially) the one spoken in a few Bundesländer (I think in those that are very near to the Netherlands), it and Standard (!) Dutch are surprisingly similar. The mutual intelligibility (Platt <-> NL) is directly comparable to the one of Dutch and Afrikaans.

Sources?

The grammar of Afrikaans is fairly different from both Standard Dutch and Low Saxon--so much so it's even been claimed to be a creole. But phonologically it's still pretty close whereas Low Saxon is quite distinct.

(I read Dutch and Low Saxon well although I don't speak either of them. I see a lot of Afrikaans at work though I'm mainly just skimming works for bibliographical information.)

Was ich über Hochdeutsch, die niederländische Hochsprache, und Plattdeutsch geschrieben habe, habe ich nicht aus einer bestimmten (schriftlichen) Quelle übernommen. Sondern es basiert auf dem, was mir von diesen drei Sprachen/Sprachenvarianten bekannt ist, und in weiterer Folge auch noch auf ein paar Ableitungen (logical deductions).

Es ist mir aber auch klar, dass meine "Behauptung", dass das so wäre, für jemand anderen nicht ausreichen würde, um es auch selbst nachvollziehen zu können. Deshalb: wegen welchem Teil/welchen Teilen von dem, was ich geschrieben habe, würde dich eine Quellenangabe interessieren? Sobald mir das bekannt ist, möchte ich schauen, was ich machen kann.
this is a reboot

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 10523
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-12-29, 20:39

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:But in that case, they do have a point. Some people would go as far as even calling Standard German and Standard Dutch a single language.
Can you actually cite anyone saying that?
Ich kann mich nicht daran erinnern, etwas gelesen zu haben, in dem das so, wortwörtlich, und 1:1 stand. Aber es gibt immer wieder Menschen, die einfach mal darüber sprechen, dass sie zwei verschiedene Sprachvarianten nicht als getrennte Sprachen ansehen, nur weil bestimmte politische Grenzen eben so und nicht anders verlaufen.

Im 17. Jahrhundert wurde das tatsächlich noch so gesehen (siehe z. B. hier, aber heutzutage?

Was Platt und Niederländisch angeht, ist das hier durchaus interessant. Ja, es ist nur ein Beispiel, aber immerhin. Was die Quelle angeht, habe ich das auch aus anderen Quellen gehört.
Please correct my mistakes!

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23448
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby linguoboy » 2018-12-30, 3:50

Kraft stammt aus dem bergischen Land, wo ein Niederfränkisch gesprochen wird, das dem Niederländischen (das auch zur niederfränkischen Dialektgruppe gerechnet wird) sehr nah steht. Als "Plattdeutsch" bezeichnet man aber überwiegend Varianten des Nieder*sächs*ischen, die eng mit den Dialekten im Ostteil der Niederlanden (z.B. Drents, Twents, Veluws) verwandt sind. Diese sind aber nicht diejenigen, die als Basis der niederländischen Standardsprache dienen.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 10523
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-12-30, 11:33

Warum bezeichnet sie es dann selbst als Platt?
Please correct my mistakes!

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23448
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby linguoboy » 2018-12-30, 20:41

Weil “Platt” kein Synonym für „Niedersächsisch“ ist. Mann spricht sogar von „Mannheimer Platt“ usw.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts: 10523
Joined: 2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name: Silvia
Gender: female
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2019-01-20, 21:38

Die NZZ hatte einen ziemlich interessanten Artikel zum Wandel der Schweizer Dialekte:
https://www.nzz.ch/gesellschaft/schweiz ... R30fPeNEmo
Please correct my mistakes!

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3528
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-11-01, 21:17

I'm going through Duolingo German for fun, I just saw an interesting sentence and I'd like clarification on a grammar point:

Ich weiss, du wirst mich nie lieben.
Ich weiss, dass du mich nie lieben wirst.

Apparently, both of these sentences are correct. I was under the impression than only the second one was, and even if I had known that you could drop the dass I wouldn't have thought that would affect the word order of the second clause as I thought it was the fact of it being a subordinate clause that made the word order like that, not specifically the word "dass". Is it really just the "dass" that causes the word order to change? Would this apply to other constructions with "dass", i.e. could I say the following?:

Ich glaube, ich verstehe nicht.
Ich hoffe, er will mit mir hier bleiben.
Ich habe gesagt, sie sind Deutsch.

h34
Posts: 961
Joined: 2014-12-16, 20:15
Gender: male

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby h34 » 2019-11-02, 11:35

Ciarán12 wrote:Is it really just the "dass" that causes the word order to change?

Yes, exactly.

Ich glaube, ich verstehe nicht.
Ich hoffe, er will mit mir bleiben.
Ich habe gesagt, sie sind Deutsche*.

All these sentences are correct. Sometimes "dass" is dropped to simplify the sentence structure or to make a sentence flow better.

With "dass", the word order would change (as you mentioned):

Ich glaube, dass ich nicht verstehe.
Ich hoffe, dass er mit mir bleiben will.
Ich habe gesagt, dass sie Deutsche* sind.

Dropping "dass" is even more common if you use the subjunctive ("Konjunktiv"). The effect on the word order is the same:

Er hat gesagt, sie seien Deutsche*.
= Er hat gesagt, dass sie Deutsche* seien.

------
* Off-topic: "Deutsche" is used as a nominalized adjective here:

deutsch (adjective)
> noun, nom. sg.: ein Deutscher
> noun, nom. pl.: Deutsche

kevin
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2026
Joined: 2012-03-29, 11:07
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2019-11-03, 23:13

Ciarán12 wrote:I was under the impression than only the second one was, and even if I had known that you could drop the dass I wouldn't have thought that would affect the word order of the second clause as I thought it was the fact of it being a subordinate clause that made the word order like that, not specifically the word "dass". Is it really just the "dass" that causes the word order to change?

I may be wrong with my interpretation, but I think the only reason why it is a subordinated clause is that "dass" is a subordinating conjunction. If you leave out "dass", you don't have that subordinating conjunction any more, so it makes some sense to me that you get two (coordinated) main clauses instead. Or things that use the same syntax as main clauses anyway.

User avatar
Ciarán12
Posts: 3528
Joined: 2011-12-31, 15:23
Real Name: Ciarán
Gender: male
Location: Baile Átha Cliath (Dublin)
Country: IE Ireland (Éire / Ireland)

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-11-04, 0:17

kevin wrote:I may be wrong with my interpretation, but I think the only reason why it is a subordinated clause is that "dass" is a subordinating conjunction. If you leave out "dass", you don't have that subordinating conjunction any more, so it makes some sense to me that you get two (coordinated) main clauses instead. Or things that use the same syntax as main clauses anyway.


Okay, so you mean that the difference between:

Ich weiss, du wirst mich nie lieben.
-and-
Ich weiss, dass du mich nie lieben wirst.

Is the same as between:
I know, you'll never love me.
-and-
I know (that) you'll never love me.
?

kevin
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2026
Joined: 2012-03-29, 11:07
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2019-11-04, 9:38

This is a quite subtle difference, so I'm not 100% sure if it's exactly the same, but yes, I would think this is comparable in the case of "wissen".

However, with the other verbs you had examples for, like "glauben", "hoffen" or "sagen", I don't feel there is any semantic difference like this. The version with or without "dass" means exactly the same thing there, and not using "dass" is actually more common with them. In any case, the syntax stays the same for them: Without "dass", the main clause word order is used.


Return to “German (Deutsch)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest