Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-12-29, 12:29

xBlackHeartx wrote:Wikipedia claims that low German is actually part of a dialectal continuum with other languages in the region, including Dutch interestingly enough (of course, Wikipedia isn't really the best source for anything).

Fully agree on WP not being the best source for anything.
But in that case, they do have a point. Some people would go as far as even calling Standard German and Standard Dutch a single language. Because they wouldn't base their "language or dialect" point of view on geographical borders.

Whatever the case may be...
Lower German a.k.a. Plattdeutsch has more than a single variant. But as for (especially) the one spoken in a few Bundesländer (I think in those that are very near to the Netherlands), it and Standard (!) Dutch are surprisingly similar. The mutual intelligibility (Platt <-> NL) is directly comparable to the one of Dutch and Afrikaans.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby kevin » 2018-12-29, 12:45

Car wrote:I've never heard [dɛʀ] IRL, only once on TV, but that was a guy switching from Swabian (?) to standard German, so it might have been either influenced by that or a hypercorrection. kevin should know.
I pronounce it like [deɐ̯] or whatever this is.

Figuring out the different kinds of 'r's isn't my strength, but the most common Swabian pronunciation of "der" is something like [d̥ʕ̞] (unstressed) or [d̥ɛːʕ̞] (stressed/demonstrative). In some regions, and especially for older speakers, [r] exists, but I'm unsure about [ʀ].

Quite the contrary, they don't use it in the south and it's very much part of the German German standard pronunciation.

That's not quite right either. As far as I know, "wichtig" and "wichtiger" are pronounced like...

..."wichtich" and "wichtiger" somewhere in the North
..."wichtich" and "wichticher" in Swabia
..."wichtig" and "wichtiger" in Switzerland

I'm not aware of any region using "wichtig"/"wichticher", but different regions will use different combinations and it doesn't look like a North/South thing in this specific case.

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-12-29, 17:16

kevin wrote:..."wichtich" and "wichtiger" somewhere in the North
..."wichtich" and "wichticher" in Swabia
..."wichtig" and "wichtiger" in Switzerland

I'm not aware of any region using "wichtig"/"wichticher", but different regions will use different combinations and it doesn't look like a North/South thing in this specific case.


I can confirm the first for large parts of the north and west, at least.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby linguoboy » 2018-12-29, 18:46

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:But in that case, they do have a point. Some people would go as far as even calling Standard German and Standard Dutch a single language.

Can you actually cite anyone saying that?

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Whatever the case may be...
Lower German a.k.a. Plattdeutsch has more than a single variant. But as for (especially) the one spoken in a few Bundesländer (I think in those that are very near to the Netherlands), it and Standard (!) Dutch are surprisingly similar. The mutual intelligibility (Platt <-> NL) is directly comparable to the one of Dutch and Afrikaans.

Sources?

The grammar of Afrikaans is fairly different from both Standard Dutch and Low Saxon--so much so it's even been claimed to be a creole. But phonologically it's still pretty close whereas Low Saxon is quite distinct.

(I read Dutch and Low Saxon well although I don't speak either of them. I see a lot of Afrikaans at work though I'm mainly just skimming works for bibliographical information.)
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-12-29, 20:01

linguoboy wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:But in that case, they do have a point. Some people would go as far as even calling Standard German and Standard Dutch a single language.
Can you actually cite anyone saying that?
Ich kann mich nicht daran erinnern, etwas gelesen zu haben, in dem das so, wortwörtlich, und 1:1 stand. Aber es gibt immer wieder Menschen, die einfach mal darüber sprechen, dass sie zwei verschiedene Sprachvarianten nicht als getrennte Sprachen ansehen, nur weil bestimmte politische Grenzen eben so und nicht anders verlaufen.

Wenn man dann auch noch aus deren Texten klar und deutlich herauslesen kann, dass sie auch Deutsch und Niederländisch als eine einzige Sprache ansehen (selbst wenn beide nicht wörtlich genannt wurden), dann wäre die Frage wegem dem Zitat darüber beantwortet. Noch eine kleine Randbemerkung: ich habe nur von "some" gesprochen, as in "some people", nicht von "some linguists".
Last edited by SomehowGeekyPolyglot on 2018-12-29, 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-12-29, 20:08

linguoboy wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Whatever the case may be...
Lower German a.k.a. Plattdeutsch has more than a single variant. But as for (especially) the one spoken in a few Bundesländer (I think in those that are very near to the Netherlands), it and Standard (!) Dutch are surprisingly similar. The mutual intelligibility (Platt <-> NL) is directly comparable to the one of Dutch and Afrikaans.

Sources?

The grammar of Afrikaans is fairly different from both Standard Dutch and Low Saxon--so much so it's even been claimed to be a creole. But phonologically it's still pretty close whereas Low Saxon is quite distinct.

(I read Dutch and Low Saxon well although I don't speak either of them. I see a lot of Afrikaans at work though I'm mainly just skimming works for bibliographical information.)

Was ich über Hochdeutsch, die niederländische Hochsprache, und Plattdeutsch geschrieben habe, habe ich nicht aus einer bestimmten (schriftlichen) Quelle übernommen. Sondern es basiert auf dem, was mir von diesen drei Sprachen/Sprachenvarianten bekannt ist, und in weiterer Folge auch noch auf ein paar Ableitungen (logical deductions).

Es ist mir aber auch klar, dass meine "Behauptung", dass das so wäre, für jemand anderen nicht ausreichen würde, um es auch selbst nachvollziehen zu können. Deshalb: wegen welchem Teil/welchen Teilen von dem, was ich geschrieben habe, würde dich eine Quellenangabe interessieren? Sobald mir das bekannt ist, möchte ich schauen, was ich machen kann.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-12-29, 20:39

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:But in that case, they do have a point. Some people would go as far as even calling Standard German and Standard Dutch a single language.
Can you actually cite anyone saying that?
Ich kann mich nicht daran erinnern, etwas gelesen zu haben, in dem das so, wortwörtlich, und 1:1 stand. Aber es gibt immer wieder Menschen, die einfach mal darüber sprechen, dass sie zwei verschiedene Sprachvarianten nicht als getrennte Sprachen ansehen, nur weil bestimmte politische Grenzen eben so und nicht anders verlaufen.

Im 17. Jahrhundert wurde das tatsächlich noch so gesehen (siehe z. B. hier, aber heutzutage?

Was Platt und Niederländisch angeht, ist das hier durchaus interessant. Ja, es ist nur ein Beispiel, aber immerhin. Was die Quelle angeht, habe ich das auch aus anderen Quellen gehört.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby linguoboy » 2018-12-30, 3:50

Kraft stammt aus dem bergischen Land, wo ein Niederfränkisch gesprochen wird, das dem Niederländischen (das auch zur niederfränkischen Dialektgruppe gerechnet wird) sehr nah steht. Als "Plattdeutsch" bezeichnet man aber überwiegend Varianten des Nieder*sächs*ischen, die eng mit den Dialekten im Ostteil der Niederlanden (z.B. Drents, Twents, Veluws) verwandt sind. Diese sind aber nicht diejenigen, die als Basis der niederländischen Standardsprache dienen.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2018-12-30, 11:33

Warum bezeichnet sie es dann selbst als Platt?
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby linguoboy » 2018-12-30, 20:41

Weil “Platt” kein Synonym für „Niedersächsisch“ ist. Mann spricht sogar von „Mannheimer Platt“ usw.
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Re: Fragegruppe für Fortgeschrittene (Discussion Group)

Postby Car » 2019-01-20, 21:38

Die NZZ hatte einen ziemlich interessanten Artikel zum Wandel der Schweizer Dialekte:
https://www.nzz.ch/gesellschaft/schweiz ... R30fPeNEmo
Please correct my mistakes!


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