Azhong learns German

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azhong
Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-11-29, 4:50

(The beginning first sentence of " The Great Gatsby".)
in meinen jüngeren und verletzlicheren Jahren / als ich jüngeren und verletzlicher war
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Mein Vater hat mir einige Ratschläge/einen Rat gegeben.
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Seitdem/Seither überlege* ich es mir in Gedanken*.
*linguoboy:
wie sonst kann man sich etwas überlegen?
Seitdem/Seither[ durchkauen ich es in Gedanken. or
Seitdem/Seither durchdenken/überdenken ich es.
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In meinen jüngeren und verletzlicheren Jahren gab mein Vater mir einige Ratschläge, die Seitdem ich mir Seitdem in Gedanken überlege*.
linguoboy: ...mein Vater hat mir einen Rat gegeben, der mir seither nicht mehr aus dem Kopf geht.
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Q: (see linguoboy's quotation below.)
Last edited by azhong on 2022-05-28, 4:22, edited 14 times in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-11-29, 16:23

azhong wrote:Q: What sound do you pronounce when you are pronouncing the German long e, [e:], "gehen" for example, and have fixed the required month shape? Is your pronunciation closer to the English /i/ such as "ea" in "eat", or is it closer to a lengthened e in "egg"? Vielen Dank im Voraus fur Ihre Hilfe.

"egg" isn't a good word to use here because its pronunciation varies considerably in English; some people say /ɛɡ/ and others say /eːɡ/.

For me personally, my German /eː/ is closer to [ɛː], but that's somewhat unusual (although it is found in German dialects, particularly in the Southwest). German-speakers have sometimes teased me a little for this feature but they all understand my pronunciation just fine.

azhong wrote:(I practiced translating the beginningfirst sentence of The Great Gatsby, with the help of google translate and the dictionary as usual. Vielen Dank im Voraus für Ihre Hilfe.)

in meinen jüngeren und verletzlicher Jahren / als ich jüngeren und verletzlicher war
(in my younger and more vulnerable years.N.PL.DAT / as I was younger and more vulnerable)
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Mein Vater hat mir einige Ratschläge gegeben.
(My father gave me some advice.M.PL.)
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Seitdem überlege ich es mir in Gedanken.
(I've been turning it over in my mindthought.M.PL.DAT ever since.)
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In meinen jüngeren und verletzlicher Jahren gab mein Vater mir einige Ratschläge, die Seitdem ich mir seitdem in Gedanken überlege.
( In my younger and more vulnerable years, my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.)

The next sentence is: "Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone, he told me, just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had." So really, it's only one piece of advice. As a consequence, I would translate "some advice" as "einen Rat" rather than "einige Ratschläge".

"in Gedanken überlegen" sounds odd to me; wie sonst kann man sich etwas überlegen? You could use a different verb with in Gedanken (like durchkauen) or use a different verbal complement altogether (like durchdenken or überdenken). Or you could do what German translators of Fitzgerald have done and use a completely different expression:
In meinen jüngeren und verletzlicheren Jahren hat mein Vater mir einen Rat gegeben, der mir seither nicht mehr aus dem Kopf geht.


azhong wrote:Q: The positions of "mir" are different in the two sentences; the first is before the (direct) object "Ratschläge" but the second is after the object "es". Are there any errors?
Mein Vater hat mir einige Ratschläge gegeben.
Seitdem überlege ich es mir in Gedanken.

It's difficult to answer this without getting into the details of German word order. There are several rules operating here in tandem, but the two most relevant are:

1. Pronominal objects before noun phrases.
2. When you have two pronouns, the accusative object comes first.

In the first case, you have an dative pronominal object and an accusative noun phrase, so the pronominal object comes first. In the second case, both objects are pronominal, so the accusative one comes first.

(The first rule is actual a specific instance of a more general tendency, which is that in German--as in most languages--new information is introduced later in the sentence. Since pronouns generally stand for elements which are already known to the listener, they naturally come before noun phrases which introduce new elements.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-11-30, 3:39

Last edited by azhong on 2021-12-17, 3:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-11-30, 23:01

azhong wrote:
linguoboy wrote:"in Gedanken überlegen" sounds odd to me...You could use a different verb with in Gedanken (like durchkauen) or use a different verbal complement altogether (like durchdenken or überdenken).

To make sure, I think you mean
Seitdem durchkauen ich es mir in Gedanken. , or
Seitdem durchdenken/ überdenken ich es mir.

I don't know if it's actually incorrect (as opposed to just extremely colloquial) to use mir in these sentences, but it's certainly not required.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-12-01, 0:46

(A message to linguoboy)
Last edited by azhong on 2021-12-17, 3:54, edited 3 times in total.

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-12-01, 3:47

https://youtube.com/shorts/QAiZHtjerRo?feature=share
jüngeren
verletzlicheren
Jahren
Rat
[ʀɑ:t], long /a/. (vs "Rad" [ʀat] (wheel) )
¶ In meinen jüngeren und verletzlicheren Jahren hat mein Vater mir einen Rat gegeben, der mir seither nicht mehr aus dem Kopf gegangen ist/geht.
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Last edited by azhong on 2021-12-17, 3:56, edited 3 times in total.

h34
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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby h34 » 2021-12-01, 6:45

azhong wrote:In meinen jüngeren und verletzlicheren Jahren hat mein Vater mir einen Rat gegeben, der mir seither nicht mehr aus dem Kopf gegangen ist. (In my younger and more vulnerable years.N, my father gave me some advice.M.AKK that.NOM never went out of my head.M ever since.)

"... gegangen ist" (instead of "gegangen hat"). Everything else is correct. In addition to what you wrote, the pronunciation of "hat" and "Rat" should differ slightly; not just with regard to the pronunciation of [ʀ] vs [x], but also with regard to the vowel: -a- in "hat" is short (I think your pronunciation is correct), while -a- in "Rat" is long [ʀɑ:t] (in contrast to "Rad" [ʀat] (wheel) which tends to be pronounced with a short vowel, although there are regional differences).

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-12-03, 3:11

("Das Parfum".)
Was ist mit ihr geschehen?
»Nichts.«

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Was macht/tat sie mit dem Messer?
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Woher kommt das Blut an ihren Röcken?
»Von den Fischen.«
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Sie stand auf, warf das Messer zur Seite, und ging fort, sich zu waschen.
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¶ (The original text from the novel "Das Parfum".)
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[/quote]Edit: I didn't follow the English text I have to use the present tense in the last sentence. Instead, I used the past tense in my translation. Do you know why the author uses the present tense here?
Last edited by azhong on 2021-12-19, 4:54, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-12-04, 4:22

azhong wrote:Was macht/tat sie mit dem Messer?
Was hat sie mit dem Messer gemacht/getan?[spoil](What is she doing with that knife.N?)

I don't understand why these sentences are paired when they don't have the same meaning. The first is present tense, the second is present perfect (which is equivalent to the past tense in most varieties).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-12-04, 10:13

.
Last edited by azhong on 2022-11-22, 12:44, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-12-04, 19:54

azhong wrote:Q1: I've seemingly found one of the rules to pluralize a noun: -e -> -en, and there is no need to umlaut the verb in this -e family as far as I've seen. Unsure if it's always true, though.

Offhand, I can't think of a single exception. This is the most common method of forming plurals in German (although not the default method!). Most feminine nouns--even those which don't end in -e--pluralise in -en, as do a substantial number of masculine and neuter nouns. These masculine and neuter nouns are often called weak nouns and have the additional irregularity that they also take the -en ending in all cases except the nominative singular.

azhong wrote:Q2: I don't understand the usage of "öffnen d en"(open ing.M.AKK). "The opening man"= the man opening (the gate)?

Yup! This construction can replace an entire relative clause, e.g.:

der Mann, der die Hofpforte öffnet > der die Hofpforte öffnende Mann
the man, who opens the courtyard gate > the courtyard gate-opening man

Be forewarned that this type of construction is considered very literary. I wouldn't expect to hear it in speech unless you were quoting a work of literature (or trying to make it sound like you were).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-12-05, 7:47

.
Last edited by azhong on 2022-11-01, 7:44, edited 3 times in total.

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-12-06, 6:22

(I simplified a passage from Das Parfum.)
»Was ist das?« sagte Terrier und beugte sich über den Korb.
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»Der Bastard der Kindermörderin aus der Rue aux Fers!«
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»Gut schaut er aus.«
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»Weil er sich an mir vollgefressen hat...
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...Aber damit ist jetzt Schluß. Jetzt könnt Ihr ihn selber weiterfüttern. Er frißt alles, der Bastard.«
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Last edited by azhong on 2021-12-19, 5:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-12-06, 21:37

azhong wrote:(Ich habe einige Sätze gebildet.)
bilden - bildete - gebildet: almost reg.

This is a regular verb, as long as you keep in mind the rule that verbs with a stem ending in d or t add e before dental endings:

bilden, bildet, bildete, gebildet
wüten, wütet, wütete, gewütet
nisten, nistet, nistete, genistet
usw.

azhong wrote:Ich ging mit Blumen, was aber ein Fehler war, weil sie Blumen hasste.(I went with flowers, which was but a mistake because she hated flowers.)

Grammatically correct, but it sounds odd pragmatically. Has her opinion on flowers changed since yesterday?

azhong wrote:als ich nach Hause ankam.

1. zu Hause (at) home (locative)
nach Hause (towards) home (directional)
2. When a separable verb and its prefix come together at the end of a phrase due to subordination, the prefix precedes the verb. E.g.:

Ich kam an.
Ich kam den Fluss runter und kam an Bord
BUT
Als/weil/bevor/etc. ich ankam...

azhong wrote:»Und wo ist unserer Esel?«
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-12-07, 12:11

Meine Amme mag noch nie Blumen, was ich nicht weiss gewusst habe. Und natürlich weiß ich auch nicht warum.
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Q: Can the relative pronoun "was" (which.AKK) be replaced with "das" ? ...
»Weißt du, warum unsere Amme Blumen hasst?« ich fragte ich meine Mutter.
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»Ihr Ex-Mann hat ihr verlassen und hat sich mit einer Frau verheiratet, die Blumen verkaufte.«
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linguoboy:
Ich bin noch nie so beleidigt worden.
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Noch nie in der Geschichte gab es so hohe Steuereinnahmen wie heute.
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Er hat seine Frau verlassen.
(He's left his wife.)
Er hat sich von seiner Frau scheiden lassen.
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Er hat sich von seiner Frau getrennt.
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Last edited by azhong on 2021-12-19, 11:20, edited 11 times in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-12-07, 19:07

azhong wrote:Meine Amme mag noch nie Blumen, was ich nicht weisse. Und natürlich weisse ich auch nicht warum.
(My wet nurse never likes flowers, which I don't know. And naturally I don't know why, either.)

1. noch nie literally translates as "yet never". It's used to emphasise that a situation has existed for some while and continues up to the moment of speaking (or just before); as such, it's naturally used with the present perfect, not the simple present. E.g.:

Ich bin noch nie so beleidigt worden. I've never been so insulted. (Until just now.)

Sometimes "never before" is the best translation:

Noch nie in der Geschichte gab es so hohe Steuereinnahmen wie heute. Never before in history have tax receipts been as high as they are today.

So you need to either remove the "noch" or change the tense, depending upon what you want to say.

2. was ich nicht weiss/which I don't know makes no sense here in German or in English. Obviously the speaker knows this now, because they've just told us so, so you need to use a past tense here.

azhong wrote:»Weisst du, warum unsere Amme Blumen hasst?« ich fragte ich meine Mutter.

»Ihr Ex-Mann hat sich von ihr gelassen und (hat sich) mit einer Frau verheiratet, die Blumen verkaufte.«
(Her ex-husband divorced her and married a woman who sold flowers.)

*von ihr gelassen makes no sense here. To leave someone in the sense of walking away from a relationship is verlassen, e.g. Er hat seine Frau verlassen. He's left his wife.

If you wanted to use a reflexive verb here in order to preserve the parallel structure (and you do need to use sich with verheiraten, otherwise it means that he officiated at the marriage of his wife to someone else), you could use sich scheiden lassen "to get divorced" or sich trennen "to separate".

Er hat sich von seiner Frau scheiden lassen. He got divorced from his wife.
Er hat sich von seiner Frau getrennt. He separated from his wife.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby kevin » 2021-12-07, 21:45

I was away for the past few weeks, so I'll add some short answers to things that I think might still be interesting.

linguoboy wrote:
azhong wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
azhong wrote:1) Was ist die Sprache, die er spricht?
2) Welche Sprache spricht er?
So, pls allow me to ask again, is the first sentence natural in German compared to the second one? Or is it just a direct and awkward translation from English?

I'm not the best person to ask, being only an L2 speaker of German. This is really a question for the fluent native speakers here. All I can say is that I don't recall ever hearing the question phrased this way before. ("What is the language that you speak/are speaking" would be an odd question to ask in English as well.)

I agree that it sounds odd. What would work fine for me, however, is "Was für eine Sprache ist das, die/was er spricht?"

linguoboy wrote:For me personally, my German /eː/ is closer to [ɛː], but that's somewhat unusual (although it is found in German dialects, particularly in the Southwest).

For what it's worth, in my (southwestern) dialect /e(ː)/ and /ɛ(ː)/ are separate phonemes. This is both for long vowels (Beeren /eː/ vs. Bären /ɛː/) and for short vowels (fest /e/ vs. Fest /ɛ/; net (= nicht) /net/ vs. nett /nɛt/). Are these homophones in your dialect? I think standard pronunciation would be to make the distinction for long vowels, but not for short ones.

Of course, some words may use a different phoneme in the dialect and in the standard, so I do have /ɛ:/ for some words where the standard is /e:/, but it's not universal.

azhong wrote:Rat [/b][ʀɑ:t], long /a/. (vs "Rad" [ʀat] (wheel) )

Note that "Rat" and "Rad" both have a long /a:/ in the standard pronunciation. They sound the same for me. "Rad" with a short /a/ is a northern non-standard pronunciation.

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-12-09, 4:42

(Willkommen zurück, kavin. :) Und meine Sätze heute.)
Ich habe eine Frau von fünf Jahre vor fünf Jahren geheiratet, weil ich gedacht habe, dass sie reich war.
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Aber später habe ich herausgefunden, dass sie nicht so reich war, und habe ihr sie letztes Jahr scheiden lassen.
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Es ist richtig/ Es ist wahr/ Es stimmt, dass sie nicht reich genug ist. Sie hat nur einen Turm, zwei Mühlen und acht Esel.
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Ich werde mich mit noch einer noch reicheren Frau / einer anderen reicheren Frau verheiraten, wenn ich eine finden kann / finde.
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Last edited by azhong on 2021-12-19, 11:11, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-12-09, 18:28

azhong wrote:Ich habe mich mit einer Frau vor fünf Jahren verheiratet, weil ich gedacht habe, dass sie reich war.

Be very careful! What you said was "I married a woman who was five years old", which creates a rather different impression!

azhong wrote:Aber später habe ich herausgefunden, dass sie nicht so reich war, und habe ihrsie letztes Jahr verlassen.

Es ist richtig, dass sie nicht reich genug ist. Sie hat nur einen Turm, zwei Mühlen und acht Esel.

I don't think "richtig" is the word you want here. Its root meaning is "correct", not true, which makes it sound like you're opining that it's only right and proper than she shouldn't be rich rather than simply stating this as a fact.

azhong wrote:Ich werde mich mit noch einer reichere Frau verheiraten, wenn ich eine finden kann.

noch ein = another (in addition). This makes it sound like you're looking for another wife in addition to the one you already have. (Also, don't forget that mit always governs dative case.)

azhong wrote:Q: Can the relative pronoun "was" (which.AKK) be replaced with "das" (or some other one if "das" is incorrect)?
Meine Amme mag nie Blumen, was ich nicht gewusst habe.
I actually don't know why "was" can work here as a relative pronoun; it was suggested by Google Translate. Can "was" always work as a relative pronoun when it refers to the whole proceeding description?

A quotation from a dictionary page:
Note that was is the relative pronoun used in set expressions with certain neuter forms. For example:
alles, was … (everything which)
das, was … (that which)
nichts, was … (nothing that)
vieles, was … (a lot that)
wenig, was … (little that)
But the relative pronoun in my sentence is different; it's not referring to a single word.

Doesn't matter. As you say, it's referring to the entire clause, not any specific part of it, so that's why you need the neuter indefinite form was.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

azhong

Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-12-10, 0:58

(a stone falling into the sea...)
Last edited by azhong on 2021-12-19, 5:15, edited 2 times in total.


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