Azhong learns German

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby kevin » 2021-10-29, 11:10

The video shows it correctly. Both letters are what you would use in IPA, too: [e:] and [i:].

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-10-29, 16:17

I can relate to Azhong's confusion. Everyone's vowels vary and I learned in my intro to linguistics class that the starting position for my English /eː/ is rather low, closer to [ɛ] than to [e]. This isn't an issue for speaking English--we tolerate a great deal of variation in our diphthongs. But when I learned German, I was told that the proper way to pronounce a German /eː/ was to start pronouncing my usual /eː/ and then simply leave off the offglide. I'm sure this works fine for most speakers, but in my case it left me with a lower, more open /eː/ than is typical in Standard German. (I was more than once gently teased by northerners for how well I had learned the local dialect in the Southwest, where substitution of /ɛ/ for /eː/ is common.)

Interestingly, this has affected my perception as well. More than once, I've misheard /eː/ as /iː/ (particularly from certain speakers). I later read a monograph on observed values of vowel phonemes in spoken German and discovered that, in fact, the normal range of /eː/ overlaps with that of /ɪ/ and, occasionally, /iː/ as well. As Standard Chinese also lacks /eː/ as a phoneme, having only the diphthong /əi/, I can readily see Azhong running into the same difficulties as I did.
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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-10-29, 18:57

In the YouTube film, the way they pronounce an /e:/ sounds more like an /i:/for me. I just heard two /i:/s.

But let me try to distinguish them. According to the wikipedia page, /e:/ is like the pronunciation in English "face", and /i:/ is like that in English "meet". The vowel sound of "face" and "meet" are pretty different for me, however.

And linguoboy said:
to pronounce a German /eː/ was to start pronouncing my usual [English] /eː/ and then simply leave off the offglide.

Now, my practice exercise. I know my pronunciation is poor even in English. And I don't think I will have chance to speak German in the near future. So, please just give me some basic correctuon in my German pronunciations. Thank you. (I find my German /e:/ is very different from what the person in the film pronunces?)

https://youtu.be/TIFb7sQwoNk
(English)
Meet /i:/
face /e:/
/i:/ vs /e:/

(German)
viel /i:/
gehen /e:/ ( leaving off the offglide)
/i:/ vs /e:/

(I have to admit I myself can hear nothing different between my English pronunciation and my German pronunciation. XD)
(And, if I pronounce "Idee" with the way I do in my record, my pronunciation will be very different from what I've heard in google translate. Mine will be more like "ea-day", while the google translate's, more like "ea-dee".)
Last edited by azhong on 2021-11-25, 7:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby h34 » 2021-10-29, 22:09

As far as I know, [e:] and [i:] (without an offglide, as in Standard German) occur in Scottish English as pronounced in this video:
[e:] later, made, way, debate, make, …
[i:] seat, succeed, people, immediate, …
https://youtu.be/qvMeudXe3HM
My impression is that the way she pronounces [e:] and [i:] sounds identical to the Standard German pronunciation in words like Ergebnis, [e:] (0:10 in the video below), Pandemie, [i:] (0:35), vielen, [i:] (0:50), Themen, [e:] (1:02), wem, [e:] (1:32), Lehrer (2:00):
https://youtu.be/M2NLsWudYco
Thanks for any corrections

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-10-30, 0:33

Hi h34:

Thank you but the help you've provided this time doesn't work on me at all. I lack chance and environment and thus I rarely practice my listening and speaking in English. I do find the way the lady in the first film speaks English with a non-native pronunciation, but that's what I can only get. :(

Not yet for me to give up. I listened to some other films and try my exercise again. This is how I I pronounce my German: I have my mouth shaped in the shape of an English /e/ but I pronounce an English /i/. May I ask how does it go this time, please? Thank you.

https://youtube.com/shorts/Gp7KAhO0y60
pronunciation first in English then in German
/a/, /e/, /i/, /o/, /u/

Edit: I might be correct according to the IPA chart for the German vowels in the Vowels section of this Wikipedia page. The positions of the pronunciations seem the same for both /i/ and /e/, both are at the front of the mouth. The mouth shape differs, however; the mouth for /e/ opens wider than that for /i/. Your comments, please?
Last edited by azhong on 2021-11-25, 7:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby h34 » 2021-10-30, 8:18

azhong wrote:I listened to some other films and try my exercise again. This is how I I pronounce my German: I have my mouth shaped in the shape of an English /e/ but I pronounce an English /i/. May I ask how does it go this time, please? Thank you.
https://youtube.com/shorts/Gp7KAhO0y60
pronunciation first in English then in German
/a/, /e/, /i/, /o/, /u/

Edit: I might be correct according to the IPA chart for the German vowels in the Vowels section of this Wikipedia page. The positions of the pronunciations seem the same for both /i/ and /e/, both are at the front of the mouth. The mouth shape differs, however; the mouth for /e/ opens wider than that for /i/. Your comments, please?

I think your pronunciation of [ɑ:], [e:], [i:], [o:] and [u:] sounds perfect.

As Linguoboy mentioned, there is some regional variation anyway, so most native speakers are used to certain differences in pronunciation and wouldn't even notice if your pronunciation differed slightly from theirs. I guess it's not something to worry too much about.
Thanks for any corrections

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby kevin » 2021-11-02, 10:05

I agree the German /e:/ and /i:/ are perfect. If I should point at anything, it would be the /o:/ which I feel was a bit too open (so I would hear it as closer to [ɔ:] than [o:]) and sometimes had a slight diphthong.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby Car » 2021-11-02, 17:10

kevin wrote:I agree the German /e:/ and /i:/ are perfect. If I should point at anything, it would be the /o:/ which I feel was a bit too open (so I would hear it as closer to [ɔ:] than [o:]) and sometimes had a slight diphthong.

Agreed.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-11-22, 1:26

A duplicated post.)
Last edited by azhong on 2021-11-22, 22:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-11-22, 2:43

Vielen Dank im Voraus für Ihre Hilfe.

Wer ist der Mann dort drüben? Kennst du ihn? Ich habe ihn noch nie gesehen. Kennst du der den Mann dort drüben?
(Who's that man over there? Do you know him? I've never seen him before. Do you know the man over there?)

Was ist die Sprache, dass die er spricht? [1] Welche Sprache spricht er?
(What's the language.F he is speaking? What language is he speaking?)
[1]Q: I guess the first German sentence is unnatural? The google translator conveys both English sentences the same into the second German one.

Ich würde sagen, dass es das Spanisch ist. Oder Französisch.
(I would say it's Spanish.N. Or French.N.)

Ich bin mir[2] jedenfalls nicht so sicher, weil ich weder Spanisch noch Französisch gelernt habe.
(I am not so sure, anyway, because I have learned neither Spanish nor French.)
[2]Q: I don't realize why "mir" is necessary here. Which topic of the German grammer should I read for further study?

Ich weiss nur, dass das kein Deutsch ist.
(I only know that that isn't German.
Last edited by azhong on 2021-11-22, 23:09, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-11-22, 16:13

azhong wrote:Kennst du den Mann dort drüben?

Remember that German maintains a contrast between nominative and accusative case in the masculine singular.

azhong wrote:Was ist die Sprache, die er spricht? [1]
Welche Sprache spricht er?
(What's the language.F he is speaking?
What language is he speaking?)
[1]Q: I guess the first German sentence is unnatural? The google translator conveys both English sentences the same into the second German one.

It's incorrect. Dass is not a relativiser, only a subordinator:

Ich weiss nur, dass das kein Deutsch ist.
I only know that that isn't German.

Since Sprache is feminine, you have to use the relative pronoun die. (Relative pronouns are *mostly* identical in form to definite articles, but not in every case.)

azhong wrote:Ich würde sagen, dass das ist Spanisch ist. Oder Französisch.
(I would say it's Spanish.N. Or French.N.)

Don't forget to use subordinate word order after dass!

azhong wrote: Ich bin mir[2] jedenfalls nicht so sicher, weil ich weder Spanisch noch Französisch gelernt habe.
(I am not so sure, anyway, because I have learned neither Spanish nor French.)
[2]Q: I don't understand why "mir" is necessary here. What topic in the German grammar should I read for further study?

It isn't necessary. It adds a connotation that's difficult to characterise. To me it makes the sentence sound a bit more colloquial and maybe places some emphasis on the speaker's personal knowledge. There could be an implied contrast here, e.g.: You may be quite sure it's Spanish and not French but I don't know because I haven't studied either language.
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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-11-23, 1:20

linguoboy wrote:
azhong wrote:1) Was ist die Sprache, die er spricht?
2) Welche Sprache spricht er?
So, pls allow me to ask again, is the first sentence natural in German compared to the second one? Or is it just a direct and awkward translation from English?

And then my reading practice. Vielen Dank im Voraus for Ihre Kommentare.

https://youtu.be/LGrjtPkJpGY
Wer ist der Mann dort drüben? Kennst du ihn? Ich habe ihn noch nie gesehen. Kennst du den Mann dort drüben?
► Show Spoiler
Last edited by azhong on 2021-11-25, 7:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-11-23, 17:55

azhong wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
azhong wrote:1) Was ist die Sprache, die er spricht?
2) Welche Sprache spricht er?
So, pls allow me to ask again, is the first sentence natural in German compared to the second one? Or is it just a direct and awkward translation from English?

I'm not the best person to ask, being only an L2 speaker of German. This is really a question for the fluent native speakers here. All I can say is that I don't recall ever hearing the question phrased this way before. ("What is the language that you speak/are speaking" would be an odd question to ask in English as well.)
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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-11-24, 10:07

Ich bin sehr stolz, hier etwas Deutsch lesen zu können. :D
(I'm very proud to be able to read some German here.)
Vielen Dank im Voraus für Ihre Kommentare.
https://youtube.com/shorts/UXrk4jhfoJQ?feature=share
Einige Leute möchten nicht in modernen Hochhäusern wohnen. Auch Reihenhäuser finden sie nicht gut. Sie wohnen lieber in alten Kirchen, Türmen oder Bahnhöfen.

Reihenhaus: Reihenhäuser
Turm: Türme
Bahnhof: Bahnhöfe
► Show Spoiler
Last edited by azhong on 2021-11-24, 23:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby linguoboy » 2021-11-24, 18:04

azhong wrote:Hochhaus: high house

This isn't an existing expression in English. The word we use is "high-rise building" or just "high-rise".

azhong wrote:Sie wohnen lieber in alten Kirchen, Türmen oder Bahnhöfen.
(They prefer to live in churches.F.PL.DAT, towers.M or railroad station.M.)

Don't forget to mark the masculine nouns as plural and dative as well!
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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-11-25, 7:38

Hallo, Guten Tag. Ich möchte wieder etwas Deutsch zu lesen. Vielen Dank im Voraus für eure Hilfen Hilfe.
(Hi, good day. Again, I want to read some German. A lot of thanks in advance for your.PL help.F.PL.AKK.)
https://youtube.com/shorts/-sP3AR8e7XY
¶ Die Künstlerfamilie Goertz wohnt in einer Barockkirche in Heidelberg.
► Show Spoiler
¶ Die 200 Jahre alte Kirche ist jetzt eine große und gemütliche Wohnung: 5 Zimmer, 2 Bäder und eine Küche.
► Show Spoiler
Last edited by azhong on 2021-11-25, 14:20, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby Car » 2021-11-25, 12:31

azhong wrote:Hallo, Guten Tag. Ich möchte w[b]ieder etwas Deutsch lesen. Vielen Dank im Voraus für eure Hilfe.[/b]


You should especially work on your r, h, ö and ü, those are hardest to understand.

As for "1) Was ist die Sprache, die er spricht? ": It just sounds odd.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-11-26, 6:20

Guten Tag. Ich möchte die Aussprache von "ö" üben, aber ich fange damit an, "e" auszusprechen.
(Good day. I want to practice pronouncing ö, but I'll start by prouncing e.)

I pronounced the Chinese vowel "ㄝ" in the first part of my record. What is the sound closer to? The first "e" in Mean "Esel", the "e" in English "egg" or some other pronunciation in IPA? (It is said there is no such pronunciation of German "e" in English.)

And, if it's possible, could you please tell me how to pronounce a better German e /e/ and English e /ɛ/ starting from my "ㄝ"?

I saw this YouTube film where the pronunciation differences between the pronuciation of German i and e are compared by changing the tongue's and the mouth's shapes (roughly from 0:30 to 1:10). And I practiced them again in my second part of the record.

Then, in the third part, I practiced the pronunciation of ö. In the film I was told the pronunciation of ö has relationship with that of German e (and that's why I went back studying how to pronounce e).

I am surely still quite awkward; just some basic suggestions are enough if it's not too hard to give. Thank you in advance.
https://youtu.be/SkvfrgQOla0
The 1st Part (0:00 - 0:08)
The Chinese "" x3

The 2nd Part (0:08 - 0:25)
German /i/ vs /e/ x3
/e/ x3

The 3rd Part (0:25 - the end)
/e/ vs /ö/ x3
/ö/ x3
söhne sons (all x2)
hören to hear
brötchen bun
öffnen to open
können can

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby azhong » 2021-11-28, 0:56

Q: What sound do you pronounce when you are pronouncing the German long e, [e:], "gehen" for example, and have fixed the required month shape? Is your pronunciation closer to the English /i/ such as "ea" in "eat", or is it closer to a lengthened e in "egg"? Vielen Dank im Voraus fur Ihre Hilfe.

(I'm not in the field of liguistic, and I've found I can prounnce technically both English [i] and [e] in any mouth shape and without changing it. Although the sound differences might be unobvious, the resonant positions are indeed different:The resonant position of English [i] will be higher and [e], lower.

I think you pronounce a sound closer to the English [i] in "eat" when you pronounce a German [i] in "lieber", am I right? )

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Re: Azhong learns German

Postby h34 » 2021-11-28, 21:50

azhong wrote:The 2nd Part (0:08 - 0:25)
German /i/ vs /e/ x3
/e/ x3

IMO this sounds good. There might still be a slight "i-offglide" in your pronunciation of [e:], but it's hardly noticeable.

azhong wrote:The 3rd Part (0:25 - the end)
/e/ vs /ö/ x3
/ö/ x3

Perhaps your pronunciation of [ø:] is a bit too close to [y:] (it should be slightly more open), otherwise it sounds okay.

azhong wrote:Söhne sons (all x2)
hören to hear
Brötchen bun

[ø:] sounds quite good, but the consonants are probably quite tricky. I'm not sure how to explain the correct pronunciation of -r-. It should be clearly distinguished from -ch- in "Brötchen".

azhong wrote:öffnen to open
können can

In these two words, -ö- should be pronounced short and more open*, more like [œ].

* In general, short vowels are more open than long vowels in German, especially the vowels represented by the letters e, o, and ö:

e [e:] (long, closed) vs [ɛ] (short, open)
o [o:] (long, closed) vs [ɔ] (short, open)
ö [ø:] (long, closed) vs [œ] (short, open)
Thanks for any corrections


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