Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

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Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Old Ashes » 2010-02-24, 9:03

Hej alle! :D

I have a small question about the pronunciation of any definite neuter noun, and I hope someone can help! I've noticed that the -t at the end of definite neuter nouns (as in 'toget' or 'kartet') sometimes sounds like the soft 'd' sound also used in Danish. Other times, it's either silent or barely pronounced. What is the "correct" way to pronounce it?

I hope I make sense to you guys.. sometimes I make no sense to myself :lol: Also, thanks for any help!
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby maikengj » 2010-02-26, 11:09

Off the top of my head I would say that the t at the end always would be pronounced as a soft d - but there might be dialects that pronouce it differently. (I'm from Copenhagen, so I speak "standart" danish - more or less).

I'll try asking my friends from Fyn and Jylland, and then maybe elaborate.
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Phileas » 2010-04-19, 13:42

Yes, you will definitely not go wrong, if you pronounce it with the soft 'd'. That pronunciation is what I perceive to be the 'standard,' as maikengj puts it.

My father and his family are from Fredericia in Jylland, and they do have some tendency to use the hard 't' instead.

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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby joenycboi » 2010-10-21, 15:07

I've heard the hard 't' pronunciation in podcasts, but it's usually when the speaker is reading something and wants to be heard more clearly. It seems like it's similar to what we do in English when we pronounce "center" as "senner" in speech, but when we want to be heard more clearly, we might pronounce the 't': "senn-terr"

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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Hunef » 2010-11-01, 17:17

The interesting question here is why it is spelled -t and not -d.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby ILuvEire » 2010-11-02, 1:07

Hunef wrote:The interesting question here is why it is spelled -t and not -d.
Etymology. Danish is quite fond of keeping around old spellings.
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Hildibrandr » 2010-11-02, 9:25

ILuvEire wrote:
Hunef wrote:The interesting question here is why it is spelled -t and not -d.
Etymology. Danish is quite fond of keeping around old spellings.

I wouldn't say Danish speakers are fond of it, but no one really dares to change the written language. Too much trouble, I guess :roll:

To stay on topic: I'm from Copenhagen, and I pronounce it like a soft D. Always. And the people I know in Jutland pronounce it as a T :)

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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Hunef » 2010-11-02, 19:56

ILuvEire wrote:
Hunef wrote:The interesting question here is why it is spelled -t and not -d.
Etymology. Danish is quite fond of keeping around old spellings.

Yeah, of course it's due to etymology. (Cf. the fact that the Swedish same ending -t is silent in most dialects, especially the ones Standard Swedish is based on.) But, to be consistent, shouldn't one then spell, e.g., fod 'foot' as "fot" (ON fót-)? :hmm:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Hildibrandr » 2010-11-02, 22:49

Hunef wrote:
ILuvEire wrote:
Hunef wrote:The interesting question here is why it is spelled -t and not -d.
Etymology. Danish is quite fond of keeping around old spellings.

Yeah, of course it's due to etymology. (Cf. the fact that the Swedish same ending -t is silent in most dialects, especially the ones Standard Swedish is based on.) But, to be consistent, shouldn't one then spell, e.g., fod 'foot' as "fot" (ON fót-)? :hmm:


Hmm.. no. I just thought about your original question, and I think that the special pronunciation of the t might have something to do with the e in -et actually being a schwa :mrgreen: If e had been a "proper" vowel, I'm pretty sure that the t would've just been a t.

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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Hunef » 2010-11-03, 18:03

Hildibrandr wrote:Hmm.. no. I just thought about your original question, and I think that the special pronunciation of the t might have something to do with the e in -et actually being a schwa :mrgreen: If e had been a "proper" vowel, I'm pretty sure that the t would've just been a t.

Of course, that's the reason it works. But it is still somewhat inconsistent. In my opinion the spelling -ed should be employed in all three (or four) Mainland Scandinavian languages.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Hildibrandr » 2010-11-03, 20:25

Hunef wrote:Of course, that's the reason it works. But it is still somewhat inconsistent. In my opinion the spelling -ed should be employed in all three (or four) Mainland Scandinavian languages.

But if you make that change, -et and et will no longer work as an obvious pair. That is something I at least consider important when trying to come up with a better written language for Danish (and English for that matter) :hmm:

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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Johanna » 2010-11-03, 20:44

Hildibrandr wrote:
Hunef wrote:Of course, that's the reason it works. But it is still somewhat inconsistent. In my opinion the spelling -ed should be employed in all three (or four) Mainland Scandinavian languages.

But if you make that change, -et and et will no longer work as an obvious pair. That is something I at least consider important when trying to come up with a better written language for Danish (and English for that matter) :hmm:

Also, the Geatish and Scanian dialects do pronounce that t, and they do it as a t, not a d. For me having a d that's silent for half of the population and pronounced as a t by the other half isn't logical anywhere, a t that's silent for half and a t for half is however.
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby joenycboi » 2010-11-04, 15:50

Hunef wrote:
ILuvEire wrote:
Hunef wrote:The interesting question here is why it is spelled -t and not -d.
Etymology. Danish is quite fond of keeping around old spellings.

Yeah, of course it's due to etymology. (Cf. the fact that the Swedish same ending -t is silent in most dialects, especially the ones Standard Swedish is based on.) But, to be consistent, shouldn't one then spell, e.g., fod 'foot' as "fot" (ON fót-)? :hmm:


Etymology isn't the only reason; the second is also history, specifically the time period when spelling was historically regularized.

By the time Danish spelling was standardized, ON fót probably already sounded like [foˀd], the 't' being softened to 'd', and thus was spelled that way. Danish continued to evolve, though, and so today the word is pronounced [foˀð], the 'd' being softened further to 'dh', but the spelling that reflects the older pronunciation has stayed.

This is one reason I like studying Danish along with the other Scandinavian languages because all of a sudden English doesn't seem so alone, and weird spelling rules begin to make sense. For example:

The spelling of the word 'knee', pronounced [ni:] today, was regularized at a time when it sounded more like Danish 'knæ' [knεˀ]. English didn't stop evolving there, and gradually the 'k' sound was removed, but the spelling was already fixed, and learning new spellings isn't always easy!

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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Hunef » 2010-11-04, 23:42

Johanna wrote:Also, the Geatish and Scanian dialects do pronounce that t,

Scanian has -ed.

Johanna wrote:For me having a d that's silent for half of the population and pronounced as a t by the other half isn't logical anywhere, a t that's silent for half and a t for half is however.

Neither makes sense, really.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Johanna » 2010-11-05, 5:18

Hunef wrote:
Johanna wrote:Also, the Geatish and Scanian dialects do pronounce that t,

Scanian has -ed.

Traditionally maybe, but all Scanians I've met have had a t there.

Hunef wrote:
Johanna wrote:For me having a d that's silent for half of the population and pronounced as a t by the other half isn't logical anywhere, a t that's silent for half and a t for half is however.

Neither makes sense, really.

It makes more sense to have something that at least some people actually say than something that no one says.

Also, it would be a great way to kill the Geatish dialects even further since people are so keen on spelling pronunciations these days.
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Hunef » 2010-11-05, 21:07

Johanna wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Johanna wrote:Also, the Geatish and Scanian dialects do pronounce that t,

Scanian has -ed.

Traditionally maybe, but all Scanians I've met have had a t there.

You geats have a tendency to confuse d and t anyway with d sounding like a non-aspirated t, of course you have problems hearing the difference betwwen a final d and a final t. :?

Johanna wrote:
Hunef wrote:
Johanna wrote:For me having a d that's silent for half of the population and pronounced as a t by the other half isn't logical anywhere, a t that's silent for half and a t for half is however.

Neither makes sense, really.

It makes more sense to have something that at least some people actually say than something that no one says.

Not necessarily.

Johanna wrote:Also, it would be a great way to kill the Geatish dialects even further since people are so keen on spelling pronunciations these days.

Isn't Swedish really a variety of Geatish rather than "Swedish" in the correct sense. :hmm:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Re: Definite neuter noun pronunciation?

Postby Dingbats » 2010-11-13, 11:51

Hunef wrote:You geats have a tendency to confuse d and t anyway with d sounding like a non-aspirated t

So do we Stockholmers, at least word-initially.


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