Swedish in Riget

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mafke
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Swedish in Riget

Postby mafke » 2007-08-11, 18:01

I'm just in the middle of watching Riget (finally) and have a question about language.

Namely, what kind of Swedish (from a Danish point of view) is Helmer speaking?

That is, does he make any effort to make his Swedish more understandable to people in Denmark (that would seem out of character, although having to do so would also explain a little of his foul attitude). Is it a dialect of Swedish that's more in tune with Danish than that other varieties?

Does he speak noticeably differently to himself (since he does that a lot) than when speaking with Danes?

Also, do the Danish characters speak differently to him than to each other?

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Postby Hunef » 2007-08-11, 18:36

I am from Sweden, so I think I can enlighten some things.

Stig Helmer speaks what in Swedish is called "ädelskånska" (lit. 'noble scanian'), i.e., the academical form of Scanian spoken in the province Scania in the southernmost part of Sweden. The proper (rather than the noble variety of the) Scanian dialect is historically a Danish dialect, and is virtually identical to the dialect spoken on the Danish island Bornholm southeast of Scania.

If I don't remember wrong, he does no effort to speak Danish except for perhaps a few words. I don't think he was subtitled when Kingdom was on Swedish TV, but I don't remember for sure.
When listening to this sample of Stig Helmer's speech I even get the impression that he makes an effort to not speak Scanian, but rather a less Danish-like form of Swedish. Sounds like an intermediate between Standard Swedish and "ädelskånska". Thus, he probably was instructed to sound more Swedish than he in reality does. But it may equally well be because this is how he sounds like whne acting. Scanian was not possible to use until recently in the theatres and movies unless one specifically portrayed Scanians.

R.I.P. Ernst-Hugo. :cry:
Here he is in a mid 70's kids' TV show (he's the blond guy): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGzxDMFnb98.
Here he is in an early 70's music show (he's the guy to the right): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyUA_1NHT0. (He appears very Danish in my eyes there. Looks archetypically Danish with that strange face!)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
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Swedish

Postby 0stsee » 2007-08-14, 15:29

Ähm.. I watched the youtube links, and it didn't seem to me that Mr Hugo was speaking something other than a normal Swedish. :?


MarK

Hunef wrote:I am from Sweden, so I think I can enlighten some things.

Stig Helmer speaks what in Swedish is called "ädelskånska" (lit. 'noble scanian'), i.e., the academical form of Scanian spoken in the province Scania in the southernmost part of Sweden. The proper (rather than the noble variety of the) Scanian dialect is historically a Danish dialect, and is virtually identical to the dialect spoken on the Danish island Bornholm southeast of Scania.

If I don't remember wrong, he does no effort to speak Danish except for perhaps a few words. I don't think he was subtitled when Kingdom was on Swedish TV, but I don't remember for sure.
When listening to this sample of Stig Helmer's speech I even get the impression that he makes an effort to not speak Scanian, but rather a less Danish-like form of Swedish. Sounds like an intermediate between Standard Swedish and "ädelskånska". Thus, he probably was instructed to sound more Swedish than he in reality does. But it may equally well be because this is how he sounds like whne acting. Scanian was not possible to use until recently in the theatres and movies unless one specifically portrayed Scanians.

R.I.P. Ernst-Hugo. :cry:
Here he is in a mid 70's kids' TV show (he's the blond guy): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGzxDMFnb98.
Here he is in an early 70's music show (he's the guy to the right): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teyUA_1NHT0. (He appears very Danish in my eyes there. Looks archetypically Danish with that strange face!)

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Re: Swedish

Postby Hunef » 2007-08-14, 18:56

0stsee wrote:Ähm.. I watched the youtube links, and it didn't seem to me that Mr Hugo was speaking something other than a normal Swedish. :?

All classical actors in Sweden were trained to speak Standard Swedish. In my ears he sounds like speaking something between Noble Scanian and Standard Central Swedish.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan

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Postby mafke » 2007-08-14, 23:39

Thanks for the replies. Another quick question.

I'd read that final unstressed -er in Danish is pronounced -å but never heard it that way. It always sounded like a plain old schwa to me (when I knew I was hearing something that would be written with final -er, that is, which is pretty rare). But in Riget when Moesgaard says 'Helmer' it definitely sounded like Helmå. Is this -er = -å only in stressed words or careful pronunciation (to the extent that such a concept exists in Danish?)

The top of ekstrabladet.dk today has an audio ad with a guy who begins 'Har du planer' does that -er sound like -å to Danish speakers? Anyone else? It just sounds like a schwa to me.

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Postby mafke » 2007-08-14, 23:43

"He appears very Danish in my eyes there. Looks archetypically Danish with that strange face!"

I thought he looked like he could be Polish in that clip from 1971 (though not in Riget).

The shaman-therapist in Riget looked really Polish or Russian to me.

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Bare variationå?

Postby 0stsee » 2007-08-15, 0:34

mafke wrote:Thanks for the replies. Another quick question.

I'd read that final unstressed -er in Danish is pronounced -å but never heard it that way. It always sounded like a plain old schwa to me (when I knew I was hearing something that would be written with final -er, that is, which is pretty rare). But in Riget when Moesgaard says 'Helmer' it definitely sounded like Helmå. Is this -er = -å only in stressed words or careful pronunciation (to the extent that such a concept exists in Danish?)

The top of ekstrabladet.dk today has an audio ad with a guy who begins 'Har du planer' does that -er sound like -å to Danish speakers? Anyone else? It just sounds like a schwa to me.


Perhaps there are variations?

In German the final -er pronunciation varies from -e/-æ here where I live to -å/-o in Swabia (I heard the Saxons also do that).


MarK

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Postby SImon Gray » 2007-08-15, 14:00

I'm a native speaker, Copenhagen dialect.

the -er seen in planer, kager, laver, træder, etc. is pronounced like a short "uh" sound. Like the "u" in the English word "under" (typical American or common British pronunciation), "luck", or "bucket".

An å sound corresponds more or less to the "first" vowel in the pronunciation of the English letter "O". If you had to write the letter "O" in Danish the way it is pronounced in English you would probably write "åu". You don't ever move your lips if you pronounce a proper Danish vowel.

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Postby Hunef » 2007-08-15, 19:31

mafke wrote:I'd read that final unstressed -er in Danish is pronounced -å but never heard it that way. It always sounded like a plain old schwa to me (when I knew I was hearing something that would be written with final -er, that is, which is pretty rare). But in Riget when Moesgaard says 'Helmer' it definitely sounded like Helmå. Is this -er = -å only in stressed words or careful pronunciation (to the extent that such a concept exists in Danish?)

In the Southern Swedish (or, equivalently, East Danish) dialect Scanian -er is pronunced -år. This means that the Old Norse endings -r, -ir and -ur have all merged into one -år. Old Norse -ar is preserved, though. (Except in traditional Malmö dialect where it has merged with the other types of endings.)
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan


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