Tengo dos preguntas

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Antea
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby Antea » 2018-11-16, 17:23

Voy a intentar explicarlo en castellano. El verbo “estar” hace referencia a “estados” más o menos temporales o permanentes. Por ejemplo, estaba cansado, estaba dormido, estaba equivocado.

Pero cuando se trata de algo, por ejemplo “un error”, entonces utilizamos el verbo “haber”, por ejemplo, había un error.

En el fondo, esto es como los “phrasal verbs” en inglés, no hay que buscarle mucha lógica, sólo son formas de decir las cosas que hay que estudiar y saber (un rollo :yep: )

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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby linguoboy » 2018-11-16, 17:26

Antea wrote:
linguoboy wrote:[If you want to say "There used to be an error, but it's since been removed", you could use the pretérito imperfecto, i.e. estaba un error ”Había un error”

That would be more common, but I had in mind cases like this:
Alejandro Duran wrote:"El día que nos reunimos para la lectura crítica del guión, no había nadie en el universo más nervioso que yo. Lectura crítica y a mí temblándome el bolígrafo con el que me iba apuntando las anotaciones de la directora. Y sin nada que decir. Yo abrumado por los comentarios interesantísimos de todo el mundo y las páginas pasando y pasando, y sin que se me ocurriera nada, nada que decir. Y de repente, ahí estaba, un error gramatical grave. Levanté la mano y dije… “aquí se está hablando del personaje de Papi Coxx en plural, y claramente es sólo una persona."

Ahí estaba un error raro de socket que al final desapareció, ni siquiera era el antivirus.
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby Antea » 2018-11-16, 17:31

Son dos frases u oraciones independientes. Por una parte, “Ahí estaba” (eso, o lo que fuera), y luego coma, nueva oración, “un error en el texto”. Pero en ningún caso, “estaba un error” , como si fuera todo junto, como en el caso de “estaba dormido”. Es diferente :hmm:

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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby Antea » 2018-11-16, 17:34

Mira, me estáis haciendo dudar hasta a mí. Estoy discutiendo con mi marido sobre el tema.... :whistle: Yo diría “había un error”, porque “estaba un error” me suena fatal, tiene que ser un contexto muy específico, como la segunda frase que has citado :hmm:

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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby Antea » 2018-11-16, 17:36

Pero aún así, me suena mal :roll:

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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby langmon » 2018-11-16, 17:41

Antea wrote:It’s about the right verb and the right conjugation. Why in English you don’t say “It was did an error”, for example? Because it’s a mistake, and it’s not the right conjugation.


Well, even after having explained what I was asking about, this answers of yours still isn't much more than "it is wrong because it is wrong"...

I'd just like to add that there are several possible ways to gain a better understanding of, for example, Spanish verbs. And one of them is to take a really close look at the subtle nuances that are expressed using the various Spanish past tenses. Other than that, I am not re-asking my question again, especially after linguoboy already provided the information I was looking for.

For explanatory purposes only: If I was asked why one doesn't say "It was did an error", I could tell the person asking that one simply would use "It was an error" (or also "there was an error") instead. But I also could break it down some more, in case this is sort of required for that person to gain a better understanding.

Now this would be an example of such a breakdown (although it is also possible to speak about it using far less words than I did, but I simply wanted to explain):


We wouldn't say "It was did an error", but (among other possibilities) "It was an error". This is because "was" simply is used to talk about something that happened in the past. And as for "did", while it is also a past tense word, we wouldn't need it at all. It is the past tense of "to do", and "it was did an error" would mean, step by step:

"it": Referring to something that already has been explicitly or implicitly mentioned, or that hasn't been mentioned at all, other than the listener has got the possibility to find out what the speaker is talking about by doing some additional thinking.

"was": This is like saying "to be", but for the 3rd person singular of the past tense.

"did": This is like saying "to do", but also for the 3rd person singular of the past tense

"was did" in combination would mean the 3rd person singular of the past tense of "to be" and "to do" joint together. Now that is a combination we wouldn't need at all. Among the reasons for "was" being sufficient is that "was" already fully conveys the idea of something that happened in the past tense. If we add "did" to it afterwards, we would introduce some superfluous information, because everything that happened also automatically was being done by someone or something. So we don't need it, and not including it also has the benefit of additional brevity, so we simply omit it.

"an error": obvious.
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby Luís » 2018-11-16, 17:42

Y de repente, ahí estaba, un error


And suddenly there it was — a mistake

vs

Había un error


There was a mistake
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby langmon » 2018-11-16, 17:43

Antea wrote:Voy a intentar explicarlo en castellano. El verbo “estar” hace referencia a “estados” más o menos temporales o permanentes. Por ejemplo, estaba cansado, estaba dormido, estaba equivocado.

Pero cuando se trata de algo, por ejemplo “un error”, entonces utilizamos el verbo “haber”, por ejemplo, había un error.

En el fondo, esto es como los “phrasal verbs” en inglés, no hay que buscarle mucha lógica, sólo son formas de decir las cosas que hay que estudiar y saber (un rollo :yep: )


And as for this information, it is really much closer to what I asked about, also I fully "admit" :) that it contains really valuable Spanish Verb Puzzle Pieces.
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby linguoboy » 2018-11-16, 17:50

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Now this would be an example of such a breakdown

This is kind of terrible. All you really need to explain is that Standard English doesn't allow two finite verbs in the same predicate.

A more difficult challenge would be explaining why (outside of a few dialects, e.g. Hiberno-English) we don't say "It did be an error".
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby langmon » 2018-11-16, 18:05

linguoboy wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Now this would be an example of such a breakdown

This is kind of terrible. All you really need to explain is that Standard English doesn't allow two finite verbs in the same predicate.


I do know that not everyone has the same stance on breakdowns like that one.

But for some, such as myself, they are (speaking of languages still being learned) really helpful sometimes, other than they could also be done with less verbosity, but I was explaining something.

linguoboy wrote:A more difficult challenge would be explaining why (outside of a few dialects, e.g. Hiberno-English) we don't say "It did be an error".


Yes, this really would be more difficult, agreed.
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby Saim » 2018-11-16, 18:07

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:For what _underlying reason, other than "it simply isn't said that way"_ would Spanish natives avoid using that particular tense when they want to say "there was an error"?


It's not an issue of tense. They're two completely different verbs with different meanings. Fue and estuvo are in the same tense.

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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby langmon » 2018-11-16, 18:27

Saim wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:For what _underlying reason, other than "it simply isn't said that way"_ would Spanish natives avoid using that particular tense when they want to say "there was an error"?


It's not an issue of tense. They're two completely different verbs with different meanings. Fue and estuvo are in the same tense.


Yes, it isn't an issue of tense. Basically, "fue" is one of the not too many Spanish irregular verbs I know by heart, and I also have been knowing that it is PPS for some time. But when I looked up "estuvo", realizing that it is the 3rd person PPS of estar, I still didn't manage to make the full mental link as in "connecting the dots". Really like observations as these because they point me to what I still need to work on. :)
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby Ser » 2018-11-16, 19:30

To me the answer to this question is simple: estar does not take a noun phrase as a predicative complement (in Spanish: como atributo). You do not say *eso está la merienda, nor *estos están mis libros. And so such sentences have to be reworded with different verbs.

The examples Linguoboy provides are of a different nature, and therefore irrelevant to SGP's question, as they contain uses of estar without a predictive complement. The noun phrases found after the verb "estar" are actually the subject. "Un error raro de socket" is not something that "ahí" is.

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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby linguoboy » 2018-11-16, 20:26

Ser wrote:The examples Linguoboy provides are of a different nature, and therefore irrelevant to SGP's question, as they contain uses of estar without a predictive complement. The noun phrases found after the verb "estar" are actually the subject. "Un error raro de socket" is not something that "ahí" is.

I said as much previously:
Linguoboy wrote:But this is an example of the use of estar to indicate location, not identity, and is a fundamentally different case than what you're asking about.
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-17, 20:56

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:If we add "did" to it afterwards, we would introduce some superfluous information, because everything that happened also automatically was being done by someone or something. So we don't need it, and not including it also has the benefit of additional brevity, so we simply omit it.

This is actually incorrect. As linguoboy already said, Standard English doesn't allow two finite verbs in the same predicate. But there's another aspect at work here. The verb "to do" isn't a linking verb that describes what something is. The verb "to be" is a linking verb, and so in this case is describing or linking "it" to "mistake". So, it's not about superfluous information or brevity. It's about "do" being the wrong verb for this type of sentence.
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Re: Tengo dos preguntas

Postby langmon » 2018-11-17, 21:21

dEhiN wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:If we add "did" to it afterwards, we would introduce some superfluous information, because everything that happened also automatically was being done by someone or something. So we don't need it, and not including it also has the benefit of additional brevity, so we simply omit it.

This is actually incorrect. As linguoboy already said, Standard English doesn't allow two finite verbs in the same predicate. But there's another aspect at work here. The verb "to do" isn't a linking verb that describes what something is. The verb "to be" is a linking verb, and so in this case is describing or linking "it" to "mistake". So, it's not about superfluous information or brevity. It's about "do" being the wrong verb for this type of sentence.


Well, I don't have the sufficient mental focus right now to be fully able to grasp every single detail here :). (No need to re-explain it further).

But, as for something like "to do" not being a linking verb, I 2nd [sic] that. When I am looking at one of those Underlying Reasons (and many of my language related questions are about something else), then even small hints like "this is/isn't a linking verb" can come in handy.
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