kubik - Español

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kuЫК

kubik - Español

Postby kuЫК » 2016-10-07, 9:47

Firstly, a few questions.
What is the purpose of se in the phrase se nos ha muerto? According to a couple of dictionaries I've checked the meaning of morirse is "to have a strong feeling", or "to die of something" in a figurative sense, but in the context of a sentence it clearly meant "to die" literally. In what way then is morirse different to just morir?
What is the difference between trasladarse and mudarse? Is it that trasladarse means something more permanent?
What is the usual way to address someone on the Internet: with tú/vosotros or Usted(es)? In Russian a formal form of address is usually the default, in German it's the complete opposite, what's the case with Spanish?

Secondly, on an online language course I was tasked to chat with a native speaker on the topic Favorite music for 10-15 sentences. I hope someone can help me with this! :silly: I'll start:
¿Cuál es tu música favorita? ¿Tienes un género de la música que prefiere o algunas bandas que te gustan lo más?

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Re: kubik - Español

Postby Antea » 2016-10-07, 17:25

Hi :D . For me "se nos ha muerto", is used with animals or plants, but not with persons. For example: "se nos ha muerto el canario". If someone use this expression for persons, for me it's like an informal expression, not very respectful (I speak Spanish from Spain, I don't know how it is used in other countries).

For me the difference between "morir" and "morirse", or for example, "dormir" and "dormirse", is the final "se" which is a reflexive pronoun that specifies that you're doing the action yourself.

For me, "mudarse" and "trasladarse" are not very different when you use them for changing of residence. But "mudarse" can also be used for changing yourself of clothes, for example. Once more, the final "se" it's the reflexive pronoun. The verbs are "mudar" or "trasladar" .

In Spain, is very general to use "tú" on every possible occasion, when you are in informal situations. For example, in chats, internet, with people or your age, etc. A different thing is if you are writing a formal letter to your boss or in formal situations, like with official instances, etc. Of course, if you have a doubt, if better to use "Usted".

kuЫК wrote:¿Cuál es tu música favorita? ¿Tienes un género de la música que prefiere o algunas bandas que te gustan lo más?


¿Tienes algún género de música preferida? ¿Qué grupos/bandas de música te gustan más? ¿Tocas algún instrumento? ¿Has estado en algún concierto últimamente? ¿En cuál? ¿Había mucha gente? ¿Había merchandising en el concierto? ¿Te has comprado alguna camiseta del grupo? I can not think of more for the moment :hmm:

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Re: kubik - Español

Postby Antea » 2016-10-07, 17:32

kuЫК wrote:What is the purpose of se in the phrase se nos ha muerto? According to a couple of dictionaries I've checked the meaning of morirse is "to have a strong feeling", or "to die of something" in a figurative sense, but in the context of a sentence it clearly meant "to die" literally. In what way then is morirse different to just morir?


Sorry, for the verbs "dormir" or "dormirse" the gramatical explanation is more complex than that. I just checked it in some gramatical forums, and I don't understand it myself (I don't agree with what they say: that for one it means the beginning of an action, and for the other not :hmm: ) . For me, these are more like expressions that you use in one or other context :hmm:

kuЫК

Re: kubik - Español

Postby kuЫК » 2016-10-07, 19:29

Thank you for your answer!
Antea wrote:For me "se nos ha muerto", is used with animals or plants, but not with persons. For example: "se nos ha muerto el canario". If someone use this expression for persons, for me it's like an informal expression, not very respectful (I speak Spanish from Spain, I don't know how it is used in other countries).

That's actually interesting, because in the context I heard that that was a person who died. But it was clearly said in some variety of Latin American Spanish and if it means there are indeed some regional variations, then I probably won't explore that topic any further for now, otherwise it'll get too confusing.
Antea wrote:
kuЫК wrote:¿Cuál es tu música favorita? ¿Tienes un género de la música que prefiere o algunas bandas que te gustan lo más?

¿Tienes algún género de música preferida? ¿Qué grupos/bandas de música te gustan más? ¿Tocas algún instrumento? ¿Has estado en algún concierto últimamente? ¿En cuál? ¿Había mucha gente? ¿Había merchandising en el concierto? ¿Te has comprado alguna camiseta del grupo? I can not think of more for the moment
That was slightly not what meant, sorry :lol: I'll try to make a kind of a dialogue by adding my responses to some of those questions:

¿Tienes algún género de música preferida?
Me suele gustar más la música instrumental, pero frecuentamente oigo tambíen canciones muy buenas.
¿Qué grupos/bandas de música te gustan más?
No tengo grupos preferidos.
¿Tocas algún instrumento?
No toco, pero cuándo era un adolescente mi familia quiso que yo aprendería tocar el piano, yo probé y me no gustó.
¿Has estado en algún concierto últimamente?
No, tengo trastorno de ansiedad ligero y es difícil para mí estar entre mucha gente.

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Re: kubik - Español

Postby Antea » 2016-10-07, 23:10

kuЫК wrote:¿Tienes algún género de música preferida?
Me suele gustar más la música instrumental, pero frecuentamente oigo escucho tambíen canciones muy buenas.
¿Qué grupos/bandas de música te gustan más?
No tengo grupos preferidos.
¿Tocas algún instrumento?
No toco, pero cuándo era un adolescente mi familia quiso que yo aprendiese a aprendería tocar el piano, yo lo probé y me no me gustó.
¿Has estado en algún concierto últimamente?
No, tengo trastorno de ansiedad ligero y es difícil para mí estar entre mucha gente.

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Re: kubik - Español

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-10-08, 15:11

kuЫК wrote:What is the purpose of se in the phrase se nos ha muerto? According to a couple of dictionaries I've checked the meaning of morirse is "to have a strong feeling", or "to die of something" in a figurative sense, but in the context of a sentence it clearly meant "to die" literally. In what way then is morirse different to just morir?


In this case se is being used to indicate that the event was unexpected or unintentional. It is similar to the way you say se me olvidó ("I forgot it," or more accurately, "it forgot itself on me"). Some grammar books refer to this as "no-fault se" but its meaning is a bit broader than that. It is a way of expressing an action without assigning blame, or a way of telling about an event that was not planned by anyone.
With the verb morir and some other verbs, adding "me" or "nos" (or any appropriate form of se) can make it more personal or express a sense of loss, because adds a sense of the impact the death had on the speaker (not just "this happened," but rather "this happened to me/us").
It also suggests that the death happened from natural causes (i.e., it was not intentional or the result of a sudden accident) - it would sound strange to say "se nos murió el soldado en la guerra", for example.

Some other examples:
Se me olvidó el libro. = I forgot the book, but more indirect in terms of blame: "the book forgot itself on me"
Se me escapó de la memoria. = it slipped my mind, "it escaped from my memory"
Se nos escaparon los perros. = the dogs escaped, again more personal and indirect: "the dogs got away from us"
El auto se me rompió. = the car broke down, expressing impact on the speaker: "the car broke down on me"
Se me cayó el vaso. = I dropped the glass, personal impact without taking blame: "the glass just up and fell"
¿Se te perdieron las llaves? = did you lose the keys?, without assigning blame: "did the keys get lost from you?"
Se me murió la planta. = the plant died, not my fault/but it affects me: "the plant up and died on me"
Se nos murió el canario. = the canary died, not our fault/but it affects us: "our canary went and died on us"
Se nos muere el amor. = our love is dying, not our fault/affects us: "our love is dying on us"
Se nos murió la abuela. = our grandmother passed away, "grandma passed away on us"
No te me mueras = don't die, more personal: "don't you die on me"
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

kuЫК

Re: kubik - Español

Postby kuЫК » 2016-10-08, 17:35

Linguaphile wrote:
kuЫК wrote:What is the purpose of se in the phrase se nos ha muerto? According to a couple of dictionaries I've checked the meaning of morirse is "to have a strong feeling", or "to die of something" in a figurative sense, but in the context of a sentence it clearly meant "to die" literally. In what way then is morirse different to just morir?

In this case se is being used to indicate that the event was unexpected or unintentional. It is similar to the way you say se me olvidó ("I forgot it," or more accurately, "it forgot itself on me"). Some grammar books refer to this as "no-fault se" but its meaning is a bit broader than that. It is a way of expressing an action without assigning blame, or a way of telling about an event that was not planned by anyone.

Thank you for comparing se nos ha muerto with se me olvidó, that was actually helpful. I've known about such use of "se", but I have mistakenly equated it with a similar construction in Russian that can only work with the verbs which has a reflexive counterpart to begin with and a verb meaning 'to die' can't have such since it's intransitive.
With the verb morir and some other verbs, adding "me" or "nos" (or any appropriate form of se) can make it more personal or express a sense of loss, because adds a sense of the impact the death had on the speaker (not just "this happened," but rather "this happened to me/us").
It also suggests that the death happened from natural causes (i.e., it was not intentional or the result of a sudden accident) - it would sound strange to say "se nos murió el soldado en la guerra", for example.

I have a couple of follow up questions. The same construction in the 3rd person will look like se le(s) murió, is that correct? May the phrase se me olvidó mean that I am not the one who forgot, but rather the one who is affected by someone else forgetting something?

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Re: kubik - Español

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-10-08, 18:10

kuЫК wrote:I have a couple of follow up questions. The same construction in the 3rd person will look like se le(s) murió, is that correct?

Yes. El niño está triste porque se le murió el perrito. = The child is sad because his puppy died.

kuЫК wrote:Can the phrase se me olvidó mean that I am not the one who forgot, but rather the one who is affected by someone else forgetting something?

No. Just like in your example above, it would be se le(s) olvidó ("it forgot itself on him/them"), even if the other person's forgetfulness does affect you. In this case me or le(s) indicates the person in whose head the "forgetting" occurred, not the person who had to face the consequences of it after the fact (much like the English phrase "it slipped his mind").
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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Re: kubik - Español

Postby Antea » 2016-10-09, 12:58

But when you say "He olvidado el libro", it's also unexpected and unintentional, and the same when you say: "Esta persona murió en un accidente de coche", and you don't say "se nos ha muerto". Well, you can also say it, although for me it doesn't sound very elegant. I think these are like expressions, and depending on the context you can use one or other (and it doesn't change the meaning, it's more like a question of style :hmm: ).

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Re: kubik - Español

Postby Linguaphile » 2016-10-09, 17:06

Antea wrote:But when you say "He olvidado el libro", it's also unexpected and unintentional, and the same when you say: "Esta persona murió en un accidente de coche", and you don't say "se nos ha muerto". Well, you can also say it, although for me it doesn't sound very elegant. I think these are like expressions, and depending on the context you can use one or other (and it doesn't change the meaning, it's more like a question of style :hmm: ).


Definitely, it is a stylistic device. The "no fault" or "personal" connotation can be added using "se le" or by adding other details to explain the situation. Also, it is somewhat regional especially with the verb olvidar - for example Me olvidé is preferred over Se me olvidó in Argentina and Galicia from what I understand, but Se me olvidó is preferred in most of the rest of Spain and in Mexico, at least in my experience.
As for the se le construction with the verb morir. your example "esta persona murió en un accidente de coche" is quite similar to the one I mentioned above - you don't say "se nos murió el soldado en la guerra" either. When details explaining an accident (or any similar specific cause) are given in the sentence you don't normally use the se le construction along with it (or, at least, I can't think of any examples where I've heard or used it that way).
Se le is just one possible form of word choice that works in certain contexts to give a bit of a personal connotation. Adding other details is another possible way to convey the same meaning and connotation. So I agree with you that it's not a different meaning, just a different construction or, as you said, a question of style.
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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Re: kubik - Español

Postby Dannylearns » 2017-07-25, 13:30

I like that the online course gives you homework like that. I've never followed an online program but it might have some good ideas. Gracais, voy a intentar tambien.


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