A Question of Time, Aspect and Actionality...

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ciuppo2000
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A Question of Time, Aspect and Actionality...

Postby ciuppo2000 » 2011-01-04, 9:59

Hello to all Latvian friends!

According to your intuition of native speakers what kind of situations represent the following sentences:

1) VAKAR JĀNIS IR LASĪJIS GRĀMATU.

2) VAKAR JĀNIS IR IZLASĪJIS GRĀMATU.

3 VAKAR JĀNIS IZLASĪJA GRĀMATU.

In other words I am trying to find out which differences a native speaker feels in the above mentioned sentences and in which contests he would use them.

Thank you very much indeed!!!

ciuppo2000 :)

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mak
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Re: A Question of Time, Aspect and Actionality...

Postby mak » 2011-01-04, 14:48

Hi you

I would never say 1) or 2) because they are confusing, don't make sense and just sound wrong. I can imagine myself saying that only when I've said vakar and then changed my mind and wanted to say something else.

3) implies that he's finished the book. That adverb placed at the beginning of the sentence also gives me the impression that he did some other things with it (i.e. the speaker hasn't finished the sentence). For example, Vakar Jānis izlasīja grāmatu, to pēc tam sadedzināja un pelnus izkaisīja vējā. If you ask me, Jānis vakar izlasīja grāmatu is better if you want it to be a standalone sentence.

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Re: A Question of Time, Aspect and Actionality...

Postby ciuppo2000 » 2011-01-05, 13:22

Hello Mak!

Thank you very much for having expressed your opinion on the sentences and for your interesting considerations!!!

Could you or somebody else mention some sentence and contest in which could be possible to use the forms: IR LASĪJIS and IR IZLASĪJIS?

ciuppo2000 :)

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Re: A Question of Time, Aspect and Actionality...

Postby mak » 2011-01-05, 20:32

- Vai tu esi lasījusi Krēslu?
- Jā, es esmu izlasījusi visas grāmatas!!!


In this highly fictional dialogue I'm asking if she has read any of the Twilight books so that I can tell her what they're about if she hasn't or talk about them if she has. I don't care when she's read them, I just care to know if she's familiar with this vampire fiction. She answers very enthusiastically and wants to emphasize that she has read all of them, cover to cover.


Google results

Labdien! Situācija sekojoša: vectēvs kādā avīzē ir izlasījis, ka testaments ir derīgs arī bez liecinieku parakstiem un notariālā apliecinājuma.
http://latvijasnotars.lv/lv/actual/answers/entry/942/

Here, it's not important when he read that piece of information but what he read and what he understood it meant.

Pirms uzsākt spēlēt speles.spoki.lv galda spēles, katrs spēlētājs ir izlasījis un iepazinies ar šiem noteikumiem un piekrīt tos ievērot
http://speles.spoki.lv/games/?usg=online_home_noteikumi

All players have read the terms & conditions and promise to abide by them. They can only do that if they've understood them.

Kā pateikt, ja kāds ir izlasījis nosūtīto e-pastu.
http://www.searchgrid.org/index.php?lan ... 2&id=37000

This guide will explain to you how to get notification when your sent emails have been read.

īpatnības: ir izlasījis VISAS grāmatas, zin visu, ko vien ir iespējams, bet neko neatceras no bērnības.
http://halucogen.deviantart.com/art/Ste ... 470?q=&qo=

He's read ALL books and he knows everything there is to know.

Manu vēstuli draugos.lv Dombrovskis ir izlasījis. Bet atbildējis vēl nav.
http://www.calis.lv/aprunasimies/forums ... 03&page=22

The prime minister read the message but didn't bother to answer. The way she said it makes me think she's still hoping to hear back from him.

Čaks Norris ir izlasījis visu internetā pieejamo informāciju.

Chuck Norris has read the internet........twice.

Kāds no Jums ir izlasījis kādu grāmatu uz iPhone, no a-z?
http://www.civciv.lv/1219985288

Here someone is asking if anyone has read a book on an iPhone, cover to cover. Everyone has tried reading something on a phone but the poster probably wants to know what it's like to read books on a phone for a prolonged period of time.

Kāds ir izlasījis pēdējo grāmatu par H. Poteru?
Pastāstiet, kā viss beidzās

http://www.datuve.lv/forums/43431/Kads_ ... H._Poteru/

This is probably the best example of the difference between lasījis/izlasījis. In the title of the forum post, author is looking for someone who's read the 7th HP book because he wants to know how it ends and for someone to know how it ends they have to have finished reading the book. Unfortunately it's been 3 years and no one has told him.

Vai kāds jau ir izlasījis Jāņa Lejiņa ''Zīmogs sarkanā vaskā''? Vai tiešām ir tik izcila kā stāsta medijos?

Here someone is asking if this book is really that great. You need to read it to answer this question.


kurš daudz ir lasījis?
Kaads te nav aarzemju literatuuras spechuks?
vajadzeetu pierakstus un kaadas graamatas recenzijas&analiizi.

http://forums.delfi.lv/read.php?f=106&i=37771&t=37771

Here someone is looking for a person who's an avid reader. "ir daudz lasījis" describes someone who reads a lot.

Vai kāds ir lasījis Remarka darbu "Ne vienmēr jābūt kaviāram"( jeb kautkā līdzīgi saucās)
http://meeting.oho.lv/meeting.php?cmd=i ... aid=256791

Vai kāds ir lasījis amerikāņa Maikla Kraitona grāmatas, ja ir , vai patika?
Es esmu lasījis un man patika visas(2-tikai tik daudz esmu lasījis).

http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/lofive ... 15752.html

Es gribētu zināt jūsu viedokli par Zentas Ērgles darbiem. Man pašam jau tie patīk, visus gan neesmu lasījis, bet izlasītie man patika."
"Man patīk, esmu lasījusi gandrīz visas viņas grāmatas !
http://www.kurbijkurne.lv/forums/lofive ... 17869.html

- vai ir kāds, kas nevis vienkārši nav lasījis twilight grāmatas, bet ir lasījis un nav paticis? tas tāds tīri izzinošs jautājums.
- vai apmēram 10 lpp ielasījiens skaitās? Tā, ka saproti, ka slinkums turpināt. Līdzīgi bija bērnībā ar E. Vollesu :)

http://www.civciv.lv/11328164860

What all of these questions have in common is that they ask for opinion. You can give your opinion even if you haven't read the whole book. Case in point, in the last quote someone asks if he can give his opinion if he has only read 10 pages. If the first person had said "ir izlasījis" then I doubt he'd've answered.

Es un bērns esam tie, kas grāmatu nav lasījuši. ;) Bērns ir lasījis pirmās trīs, es esmu lasījusi pusotru.
http://www.sapforums.lv/index.php?t=77100

Another example which reinforces the notion that "ir lasījis" can mean you have read only a part of a book.


You can derive your own conclusions but to me it seems that we say "ir lasījis" to ask for opinion, to say something about our reading habits in general or to imply that we haven't read everything, just parts of it, or in other words describes the process or activity of reading. "ir izlasījis" on the other hand means that you've either read something cover to cover, have finished reading or you've comprehended what you read.

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ciuppo2000
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Re: A Question of Time, Aspect and Actionality...

Postby ciuppo2000 » 2011-01-09, 9:53

Wow!!! ...What a great job!!! ...Thanks Mak :D !!!

I will examine the examples and surely come back with some other questions.

ciuppo2000 :)

Sol Invictus
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Re: A Question of Time, Aspect and Actionality...

Postby Sol Invictus » 2011-01-09, 21:50

mak wrote:I would never say 1) or 2) because they are confusing, don't make sense and just sound wrong. I can imagine myself saying that only when I've said vakar and then changed my mind and wanted to say something else.

Those two sentences were wrong - just like in English, you would say either John read a book yesterday or John has read a book, but John has read a book yesterday seems off. As English has much more material on it, I googled this sentence in English and got an explenation that you don't use past adverb with present perfect, I think the same rule is also true for Latvian. The diffrence between lasījis and izlasījis is that prefixes usualy slightly emphesize the meaning an make it clearer - lasījis may mean that he read, but maybe he isn't done with the book yet, izlasījis means that he definetly has read the whole book. Though ir lasījis usualy can mean both. Also mak gets impresion that he isn't geting whole picture from third sentence solely from word order, it can add a shade of meaning, but it is not something people would pay attention to in everyday conversation and I have never seen a good explenation on this topic, so I suggest to stick to using most common structures


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