Finnic loans in Latvian?

Moderator: Sol Invictus

Ada H.
Posts: 61
Joined: 2006-03-13, 10:13
Real Name: Ada Heidelberg
Gender: female
Location: EE
Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Finnic loans in Latvian?

Postby Ada H. » 2007-04-17, 9:19

Could someome please give me some examples of the Finnic (Livonian, Estonian, Finnish etc) loans in Latvian language, if there are any?

Paldies!

User avatar
Levo
Posts: 3231
Joined: 2006-10-29, 10:22
Gender: male
Location: Tallinn
Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Postby Levo » 2007-04-17, 12:44

Hi!
I have just looked in a Latvian study-book and was amazed how many Finnish-Estonian words I found for the very first sight!
I don't remember clearly for the Latvian, so I write here the finnish-estonian ones:

poika - puika ?
kaappi
veel
raamatu
...

Cool

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2989
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Postby Sol Invictus » 2007-04-17, 13:16

Levo is correct about first one, but I don't understand other words - are those in Finnic, if so could you translate them to english, so it will be easier to find Latvian variant ?

I think istaba (room) is loan from Livonian, then there is ķīris (type of large seagull) and laiva (boat, it however is loanword in finnish itself)

User avatar
Vertaler
Posts: 156
Joined: 2006-12-01, 10:12
Gender: male

Postby Vertaler » 2007-04-17, 13:30

raamat = grāmata is a Russian loan word both in Estonian and in Latvian, I think. Well, it at least is a loan word in Estonian.

I think there are far more Baltic loans in Finnic languages than Finnic in the Baltic languages. It’ll be quite difficult to determine which one was first where.

maksāt = maksaa/maksama seems like a loan word to me, and another one is probably Somija.
Last edited by Vertaler on 2007-04-17, 13:42, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Alcadras
Posts: 5508
Joined: 2005-04-16, 11:45
Real Name: Mirac Özdağ
Gender: male
Location: Ankara
Country: TR Turkey (Türkiye)

Postby Alcadras » 2007-04-17, 13:35

maksat means "aim" in Turkish. :)

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2989
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Postby Sol Invictus » 2007-04-17, 21:50

Alcadras wrote:maksat means "aim" in Turkish. :)

It means to pay in Latvian, so it has similar meaning only if we speak about bribery (like "to pay someone in order to reach some aim") :lol:
I think there are far more Baltic loans in Finnic languages than Finnic in the Baltic languages.

I guess you're right - I've heard more about loanwords from Baltic languages in Finnic languages than vice versa

User avatar
Mantaz
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2004-12-29, 19:22
Real Name: Mantas Indrašius
Gender: male
Location: Tallinn, EE
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)
Contact:

Postby Mantaz » 2007-04-18, 7:52

Levo wrote:Hi!
I have just looked in a Latvian study-book and was amazed how many Finnish-Estonian words I found for the very first sight!
I don't remember clearly for the Latvian, so I write here the finnish-estonian ones:

poika - puika ?
kaappi
veel
raamatu
...

Cool


Are you sure about "veel"? There's a a word "vėl" [again; pronounced same as veel] and bunch of probably related words with root "vėl-" in Lithuanian.

For other Latvian loans, I know:
bura [sail];
vai [or; whether]

User avatar
Zorba
Posts: 3169
Joined: 2006-03-24, 21:09

Postby Zorba » 2007-04-18, 10:25

I've noticed quite a few words to be similar on my visits to Latvia and Estonia, but I can only remember three offhand and I'm not sure which language they originated in

piim / piens = milk
Õlu / alus = beer
maja / mājā = house

User avatar
Alcadras
Posts: 5508
Joined: 2005-04-16, 11:45
Real Name: Mirac Özdağ
Gender: male
Location: Ankara
Country: TR Turkey (Türkiye)

Postby Alcadras » 2007-04-18, 10:34

Mantaz wrote:
Levo wrote:Hi!
I have just looked in a Latvian study-book and was amazed how many Finnish-Estonian words I found for the very first sight!
I don't remember clearly for the Latvian, so I write here the finnish-estonian ones:

poika - puika ?
kaappi
veel
raamatu
...

Cool


Are you sure about "veel"? There's a a word "vėl" [again; pronounced same as veel] and bunch of probably related words with root "vėl-" in Lithuanian.

For other Latvian loans, I know:
bura [sail];
vai [or; whether]

And i think estonian also has the word "veel".

User avatar
Mantaz
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2004-12-29, 19:22
Real Name: Mantas Indrašius
Gender: male
Location: Tallinn, EE
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)
Contact:

Postby Mantaz » 2007-04-18, 11:12

Zorba wrote:I've noticed quite a few words to be similar on my visits to Latvia and Estonia, but I can only remember three offhand and I'm not sure which language they originated in

piim / piens = milk
Õlu / alus = beer
maja / mājā = house


piim / piens / pienas (lith.) – Baltic
Õlu / alus / alus = Germanic
maja / māja = Finnic (from Livians?)

User avatar
Mantaz
Posts: 1527
Joined: 2004-12-29, 19:22
Real Name: Mantas Indrašius
Gender: male
Location: Tallinn, EE
Country: LT Lithuania (Lietuva)
Contact:

Postby Mantaz » 2007-04-18, 11:13

Alcadras wrote:And i think estonian also has the word "veel".


Yes, I know that! The question is where have this word originated from ;)

User avatar
Levo
Posts: 3231
Joined: 2006-10-29, 10:22
Gender: male
Location: Tallinn
Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Postby Levo » 2007-04-18, 13:10

Levo wrote:Hi!
I have just looked in a Latvian study-book and was amazed how many Finnish-Estonian words I found for the very first sight!
I don't remember clearly for the Latvian, so I write here the finnish-estonian ones:

poika - puika ?
kaappi
veel
raamatu
...

Cool


kaappi - shelf
the others has already been discussed

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2989
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Postby Sol Invictus » 2007-04-18, 13:58

I seached with google and found that there are about 80 loanwords from Livonian in standard Latvian (there are dialects heavily impacted by Livonian, I guess that such dialects should should have more loanwords), joma, kāzas, ķilda, māja, puisis, puķe, salaka, selga, suga, tērauds, vai?, vajag, veseris were given as examples. Apparently many loanwords are connected to sea (unfortunatly no examples were given). I found some names borrowed from finnic: Aino, Aiko, Ārne, Endo, Ēro, Illo, Raimo, Raivo, Taivo, Vaino, Vello, Helmi, Olavi, Elju, Ilū, Lelū, Aiga, Aigis, Aigo, Aigins, Aigija, Aigisa, Aigita, Imants, Imanta, Imanda, Imandra Jumārs, Lelū, Vanema, Elemede, Eino, Endo, Jullo, Kadrija, Kaira, Kaija, Koidula, Maima, Maimu, Raivo, Valve, Vello. Aila, Aino, Arvo, Ilmārs, Ilma, Kalle, Kusta, Laila, Laine, Linda, Taivis, Taivo, Hilja, Silja, Helmi, Kaija, Katarīna, Aigars, Imatra, Imetra, Leila, Leilī, Lempija, Maija, Maira, Mairis, Mairita, Mairits, Mairīte, Mairims, Mairina, Raitis. However not all of these are popularly used and some may have not orginated from finnic. Along these names
Kaija, Paija, Selga were also mentioned - these orginate from everyday words that have orginated from finnic. Introduction of Livonian phrasebook gives examples of placenames Ainaži, Ādaži, Ropaži, Suntaži, Ikšķile, Matkule, Puikule, Nurmuiža, Tārgale and hydronyms Aģe, Irve, Jugla, Korģe, Salaca, Līlastes ezers, Valguma ezers, Usmas ezers borrowed from Livonian. In my oppinion Kangari (because, if you would look in map you would see that historical livonian territory is full of placenames kangari) and urga also come from Livonian and I guess that swearword Lunis might orginate from estonian.
kaappi - shelf

Then I guess you mean skapis :?

User avatar
Loiks
Posts: 3174
Joined: 2005-03-17, 16:17
Real Name: Lauri Laugen
Gender: male
Location: Tallinn
Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Postby Loiks » 2007-04-18, 18:49

Kaappi is in Finnish and means 'cupboard', Estonian kapp. It's very Germanic, Finnic languages have lost the initial s.

What does that Lunis mean? I can't think of any Estonian word similar to that except lunima 'to cadge' according to my dictionary; lunis 'he/she cadged'.

A book I have "Sissejuhatus läänemeresoome keeltesse" (Introduction to Balto-Finnic Languages) knows only three Finnic words in Baltic languages: LT bure ET puri FI purje 'sail'; LT laivas ET laev FI laiva 'ship'; LT kadagys ET kadakas FI kataja 'juniper'. To compare: there are more than three pages of examples of Baltic loanwords in Finnic languages in this book. It says also that there are more loanwords in some Latvian dialects but nothing more specific.

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2989
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Postby Sol Invictus » 2007-04-18, 22:48

Loiks wrote:Kaappi is in Finnish and means 'cupboard', Estonian kapp. It's very Germanic, Finnic languages have lost the initial s.

What does that Lunis mean? I can't think of any Estonian word similar to that except lunima 'to cadge' according to my dictionary; lunis 'he/she cadged'.

A book I have "Sissejuhatus läänemeresoome keeltesse" (Introduction to Balto-Finnic Languages) knows only three Finnic words in Baltic languages: LT bure ET puri FI purje 'sail'; LT laivas ET laev FI laiva 'ship'; LT kadagys ET kadakas FI kataja 'juniper'. To compare: there are more than three pages of examples of Baltic loanwords in Finnic languages in this book. It says also that there are more loanwords in some Latvian dialects but nothing more specific.

Nothing, therfore it is so suspicious, I think it could come from estonian because I heard simmilar estonian word in Latvian-Estonian movie, it was "lunn" or something like that, it was translated as stupid (person). While live is borrowed from finnic it is loanword in Finnic too - it comes from germanic (gothic if I remmember correctly) hlaiv

amoeba

Postby amoeba » 2008-06-23, 21:51

Aside from the lexicon, there is believed to be phonological influence on Latvian from Finnic (i.e. mandatory stress on initial syllable, unlike Lithuanian - with very few exceptions). It's supported by the idea of a Finnic (Livonian) substratum in Latvian. In some respects Latvian sounds more like Estonian than Lithuanian.

Also there are morphological influences - one case which I don't have the right words to describe, but it has to do with phrases like "iet iekšā" (to go inside), which supposdely follows a Finnic pattern, opposed to the alternative "ieiet" prefixal construction common with Lithuanian and Slavic languages. It is related to perfectivization but I'm not fluent enough in any of those languages to explain it well.

It seems the Finnic languages, being in the region for much longer, borrowed heavily from Indo-European (Germanic, Baltic, Slavic [?]), but not vice-versa.

User avatar
Loiks
Posts: 3174
Joined: 2005-03-17, 16:17
Real Name: Lauri Laugen
Gender: male
Location: Tallinn
Country: EE Estonia (Eesti)

Postby Loiks » 2008-06-24, 11:58

The main areas on which the Finnics have borrowed words from Baltic are: hunting and fishery, agriculture and cattle-breeding, building and domestic household, social and affinity relations, personal qualities, nature, some particles. The words are usually more similar to modern Lithuanian.

There are some typical sound mutations:

š > h LT šalna - FI halla 'frost'

ti > si LT tiltas - FI silta 'bridge'

ln > ll LT vilna - FI villa 'wool'

ie > ai (in South Estonian and Livonian), ei (in other languages)

amoeba

Postby amoeba » 2008-06-25, 0:40

Loiks wrote:The main areas on which the Finnics have borrowed words from Baltic are: hunting and fishery, agriculture and cattle-breeding, building and domestic household, social and affinity relations, personal qualities, nature, some particles. The words are usually more similar to modern Lithuanian.


That could give support to the idea of Indo-Europeans introducing livestock and more advanced farming to the region, as well as a new social order, religious system, new technology, and especially warefare. Apparently the Pre-Indo-European folk were a much simpler and harmonious bunch :)

User avatar
Zorba
Posts: 3169
Joined: 2006-03-24, 21:09

Postby Zorba » 2008-06-25, 1:37

Really? To me "hunting and fishery, agriculture and cattle-breeding, building and domestic household, social and affinity relations, personal qualities, nature" just sounds like a catalog of anything pre-historic peoples might have talked about, except warfare!

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2989
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Re: Finnic loans in Latvian?

Postby Sol Invictus » 2009-03-05, 9:55



Return to “Latvian (Latviešu valoda)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest