Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

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Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby Woods » 2020-09-21, 11:27

I think I would like to put Arabic in my list of languages to learn, but I am not sure which version I should choose.

My considerations would be:

* It should be the dialect of a country which respects women (and by this I mean the way we do in Europe and not "she's happy being my wife at home while I'm doing whatever I want")
* It should be understandable by other Arabs, or at least it should make it a lot easier for me to get into other dialects
* It should be possible to learn - there should be resources such as textbooks, dictionaries, media and art published in the language

Should I just go for Standard literary Arabic or would a certain dialect fit my criteria better?

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby lisānunā » 2020-12-23, 10:40

Woods wrote:I think I would like to put Arabic in my list of languages to learn, but I am not sure which version I should choose.

My considerations would be:

* It should be the dialect of a country which respects women (and by this I mean the way we do in Europe and not "she's happy being my wife at home while I'm doing whatever I want")
* It should be understandable by other Arabs, or at least it should make it a lot easier for me to get into other dialects
* It should be possible to learn - there should be resources such as textbooks, dictionaries, media and art published in the language

Should I just go for Standard literary Arabic or would a certain dialect fit my criteria better?


Hi,

I recommend Modern Standard Arabic.
Understandable by a majority.
But it all depends on your motivations, really, and on your answer to the question : "Why do you want to learn Arabic?".

Still I don't think that the first criteria is a valid one, unless one believes all that is said in MSM.
My point is : I do not think that there is country where NO woman is respected.
No one should proclaim that NO woman is respected in Los Angeles just because it is the capital of adult (read MEN's) entertainment and women trafficking.
The relationship between adults is first of all an intimate one.
So nobody really knows what is happening in such or such couple.
There is abuse everywhere.
There is abuse of all kinds.

Best wishes. :)
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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby Woods » 2020-12-23, 11:50

lisānunā wrote:
Woods wrote:* It should be the dialect of a country which respects women (and by this I mean the way we do in Europe and not "she's happy being my wife at home while I'm doing whatever I want")

Still I don't think that the first criteria is a valid one, unless one believes all that is said in MSM.
My point is : I do not think that there is country where NO woman is respected.
No one should proclaim that NO woman is respected in Los Angeles just because it is the capital of adult (read MEN's) entertainment and women trafficking.
The relationship between adults is first of all an intimate one.
So nobody really knows what is happening in such or such couple.
There is abuse everywhere.

Uh, isn't it true that in Saudi Arabia every woman must have a "male guardian," meaning that she is treated as a retarded person who cannot make decisions for herself and if he rapes her for example and she says anything against it, she is shamed, imprisoned and maybe even killed? That in Egypt genital mutilation of young girls is common practice? And so on disgusting treatment of women, and men just enjoy it and nobody does anything about it?

I don't buy your "Los Angeles is the capital of adult entertainment" comparison at all.
Last edited by Woods on 2020-12-23, 12:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby lisānunā » 2020-12-23, 11:57

Woods wrote:
lisānunā wrote:
Woods wrote:* It should be the dialect of a country which respects women (and by this I mean the way we do in Europe and not "she's happy being my wife at home while I'm doing whatever I want")

Still I don't think that the first criteria is a valid one, unless one believes all that is said in MSM.
My point is : I do not think that there is country where NO woman is respected.
No one should proclaim that NO woman is respected in Los Angeles just because it is the capital of adult (read MEN's) entertainment and women trafficking.
The relationship between adults is first of all an intimate one.
So nobody really knows what is happening in such or such couple.
There is abuse everywhere.

Uh, isn't it true that in Saudi Arabia every woman must have a "male guardian," meaning that she is treated as a retarded person who cannot make decisions for herself and if he rapes her for example and she says anything against it, she is shamed, imprisoned and maybe even killed? That in Egypt genital mutilation of young girls is common practice? And so on disgusting treatment of women and men just enjoy it and nobody does anything about it?

I don't buy your "Los Angeles is the capital of adult entertainment" comparison at all.


:waytogo:
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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-02-21, 3:51

Woods wrote:It should be the dialect of a country which respects women (and by this I mean the way we do in Europe and not "she's happy being my wife at home while I'm doing whatever I want")

This is a horrible criterion to use when learning languages. Women did not have the right to vote in any sovereign European country until the 20th century. "She's happy being my wife at home while I'm doing whatever I want" is precisely how plenty of European men treat their wives to this day.

That being said, while Egypt has huge issues as far as women's rights go and women's rights in Egypt started taking a sharp turn for the worse in the 70s, it also has a very long history of female rulers, gender-based discrimination was legally forbidden in Egypt in 1956, and there have also been legal reforms in favor of women since the 70s. Egyptian Arabic is widely understood throughout the Arab World because lots of media in the Arab World is in Egyptian Arabic. There are probably more resources for Egyptian Arabic than for any other variety of Arabic (excluding Modern Standard Arabic).

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby Woods » 2022-02-21, 19:34

vijayjohn wrote:"She's happy being my wife at home while I'm doing whatever I want" is precisely how plenty of European men treat their wives to this day.

Not as far as I'm aware. There might be separate cases, but can you point a single European country where this is the norm?


vijayjohn wrote:Egyptian Arabic is widely understood throughout the Arab World because lots of media in the Arab World is in Egyptian Arabic. There are probably more resources for Egyptian Arabic than for any other variety of Arabic (excluding Modern Standard Arabic).

That is interesting to know. Although I don't remember having ever met any Egyptians, while I've been friends with people from Syria, Yemen and the French-speaking Arab countries - Morocco, Lebanon, Tunisia.


vijayjohn wrote:[In Egypt] there have also been legal reforms in favor of women since the 70s.

Like what?

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-02-21, 21:32

Woods wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:"She's happy being my wife at home while I'm doing whatever I want" is precisely how plenty of European men treat their wives to this day.

Not as far as I'm aware. There might be separate cases, but can you point a single European country where this is the norm?

Wikipedia wrote:Bulgarian women live in a society that is customarily patriarchal. While Bulgaria is often described as a patriarchal society, women may have substantial authority in household budgeting or agricultural decision making. Both men and women have the right to vote and own property. Despite decades of socialist ideology of gender equality, women are often employed in lower paying jobs, remain responsible for most household chores, and represent more than half the registered unemployed. They also occupy leadership positions less frequently than men. In 1996, fewer than 14 percent of postsocialist parliamentary representatives have been women, and only one in five municipal councilors were women in that year.

Woods wrote:Although I don't remember having ever met any Egyptians, while I've been friends with people from Syria, Yemen and the French-speaking Arab countries - Morocco, Lebanon, Tunisia.

I don't understand how this is relevant.
vijayjohn wrote:[In Egypt] there have also been legal reforms in favor of women since the 70s.

Like what?

Raising the minimum age for marriage to 18 for women and 21 for men, requiring the presence of a judge for divorce, requiring permission from a judge for polygamy, extending mothers' periods of guardianship, and requiring female judges to be considered to deal with family law cases

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby Woods » 2022-02-22, 0:32

vijayjohn wrote:Despite decades of socialist ideology of gender equality, women are often employed in lower paying jobs

I think that's universal. But I'm not getting into any feminism / gender-equality debates right now. I still have to finish that thing on racism that we were talking about first.


vijayjohn wrote:
Woods wrote:Although I don't remember having ever met any Egyptians, while I've been friends with people from Syria, Yemen and the French-speaking Arab countries - Morocco, Lebanon, Tunisia.

I don't understand how this is relevant.

It meant that you made a good point about Egyptian Arabic, but I probably wouldn't be getting into it until I've had at least some in-person contact with some Egyptians.


vijayjohn wrote:
Woods wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:[In Egypt] there have also been legal reforms in favor of women since the 70s.

Like what?

Raising the minimum age for marriage to 18 for women and 21 for men, requiring the presence of a judge for divorce, requiring permission from a judge for polygamy, extending mothers' periods of guardianship, and requiring female judges to be considered to deal with family law cases

All right, good to know :)

I hope they will do away with female genital mutilation, I've heard it's common over there.

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-02-22, 1:58

Woods wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Despite decades of socialist ideology of gender equality, women are often employed in lower paying jobs

I think that's universal.

That's kind of my point. :wink:
But I'm not getting into any feminism / gender-equality debates right now. I still have to finish that thing on racism that we were talking about first.

Okay!
vijayjohn wrote:
Woods wrote:Although I don't remember having ever met any Egyptians, while I've been friends with people from Syria, Yemen and the French-speaking Arab countries - Morocco, Lebanon, Tunisia.

I don't understand how this is relevant.

It meant that you made a good point about Egyptian Arabic, but I probably wouldn't be getting into it until I've had at least some in-person contact with some Egyptians.

Well, for whatever it's worth, Syria is also relatively progressive when it comes to women's rights, Syrian Arabic is also pretty common in media in the Arab world, and there are quite a few resources for learning that, too. Turkish TV dramas in particular are dubbed into such slow-paced Syrian Arabic that I've seen them being recommended for beginners. Syrian and other Levantine varieties of Arabic don't seem that different from Egyptian Arabic, either. (Almost all other African varieties of Arabic seem much more different from Egyptian Arabic).

Syrian Arabic is what I myself have been learning (although I've recently started listening to bits of videos for students learning other varieties of Arabic as well).

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby Woods » 2022-02-22, 10:42

vijayjohn wrote:
Woods wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Despite decades of socialist ideology of gender equality, women are often employed in lower paying jobs

I think that's universal.

That's kind of my point. :wink:

Woods wrote:But I'm not getting into any feminism / gender-equality debates right now. I still have to finish that thing on racism that we were talking about first.

Okay!

With one word (and while keeping in mind that I'm not getting into that debate), it's one thing to have women being paid less on average because of historical reasons, societal tendencies and whatever subjective factors make it that they land more senior positions less often, they are less good at negotiating their salaries and so on, and it's another thing to have ongoing practices of horrible traditions and even the legislation of the country arranged in such a way as to make them inferior to men in many ways.

By the way I just read that Egypt made female genital mutilation a felony in 2016. It took them quite some time, but you seem to be right that things are going in the right direction!

Hopefully sometime soon women will be equal to men in Arab countries. When do you think this is likely to happen?


vijayjohn wrote:Well, for whatever it's worth, Syria is also relatively progressive when it comes to women's rights, Syrian Arabic is also pretty common in media in the Arab world, and there are quite a few resources for learning that, too. Turkish TV dramas in particular are dubbed into such slow-paced Syrian Arabic that I've seen them being recommended for beginners.

Interesting!

When dubbing TV-programmes and movies, do some countries choose Modern Standard Arabic and other - their local dialect?

Syrian would be a good option for me, because the first few words that were taught to me in Arabic were taught by Syrians - it's kind of personal :)


vijayjohn wrote:Syrian and other Levantine varieties of Arabic don't seem that different from Egyptian Arabic, either.

Oh, they do! So I asked a Syrian 'how do you say "how are you"' and he said /ki:fa halyk/. Every Arab from every country understands that. I asked an Egyptian (come to think of it, I've actually met one, it didn't come to my mind until now!) and he said /äämɛl äl harda/. Nobody has been able to decipher that yet.

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-02-22, 14:24

Woods wrote:With one word (and while keeping in mind that I'm not getting into that debate), it's one thing to have women being paid less on average because of historical reasons, societal tendencies and whatever subjective factors make it that they land more senior positions less often, they are less good at negotiating their salaries and so on, and it's another thing to have ongoing practices of horrible traditions and even the legislation of the country arranged in such a way as to make them inferior to men in many ways.

I'm not sure I really agree, but you've said twice that you don't want to get into a debate about it right now, so okay, I'll at least agree to disagree.
By the way I just read that Egypt made female genital mutilation a felony in 2016. It took them quite some time, but you seem to be right that things are going in the right direction!

Yeah, even hardline conservatives in Egypt seem to be very much against FGM, and a law was passed last year requiring at least five years' prison time for anyone conducting it.
Hopefully sometime soon women will be equal to men in Arab countries. When do you think this is likely to happen?

I don't think women are "equal to men" anywhere or will be anytime soon, and I find terrorist organizations a huge impediment to women's rights and human rights in general even in the most progressive Arab countries.
When dubbing TV-programmes and movies, do some countries choose Modern Standard Arabic and other - their local dialect?

My understanding so far has been that a lot of media throughout the Arab World is broadcasted by MBC Group, which is owned by the Saudi government, and that different kinds of media are dubbed into different varieties of Arabic. If I remember correctly, American shows are usually dubbed in Egyptian Arabic, Turkish ones in Syrian Arabic, and Korean ones in Hijazi Arabic or something, but there has been a growing push from viewers to dub in MSA instead.
Syrian would be a good option for me, because the first few words that were taught to me in Arabic were taught by Syrians - it's kind of personal :)

I picked Syrian for somewhat similar reasons myself. When I was in graduate school, three of the people in one seminar I attended were Arabic students who all studied Syrian Arabic. Opportunities to practice Arabic are rare here, so their department has a policy requiring them to speak exclusively in Arabic whenever they see each other so they can practice. They'd talk to each other in Syrian Arabic, I'd try to see how much I could understand (not much), and I asked them for help learning it and started talking to them in Syrian Arabic as well.
vijayjohn wrote:Syrian and other Levantine varieties of Arabic don't seem that different from Egyptian Arabic, either.

Oh, they do! So I asked a Syrian 'how do you say "how are you"' and he said /ki:fa halyk/. Every Arab from every country understands that. I asked an Egyptian (come to think of it, I've actually met one, it didn't come to my mind until now!) and he said /äämɛl äl harda/. Nobody has been able to decipher that yet.

That's like saying American English and British English are completely different languages just because a Brit said "how do you do?" and an American said "sup?" It's just one greeting, not the whole language, and neither of these seems to be the most common greeting in either variety of Arabic. In Syrian, I would expect something more like [ˈkiːfək], and in Egyptian, something more like [ʔɪˈzəjjək].

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby OiJoua » 2022-02-22, 15:20

Woods wrote:I asked an Egyptian (come to think of it, I've actually met one, it didn't come to my mind until now!) and he said /äämɛl äl harda/. Nobody has been able to decipher that yet.

عامل ايه النهاردة aamileh innaharda "how's it going today"

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby Woods » 2022-02-22, 15:32

vijayjohn wrote:even hardline conservatives in Egypt seem to be very much against FGM

Actually in the same article where I read that they also said that in 2016 about 87% of women aged 15-49 had undergone that, that authorities had really hard time enforcing the ban and that the punishments were up to three years for the person who has requested it (I guess the so-called mom or dad) and up to seven years for the "surgeon" who performed it. So even if anyone ever gets the maximum time in prison, it will still be highly insufficient considering that she will suffer her entire life. I'd go for 30+ years for the whacko surgeon and indefinite deprivation of custody plus 15 to a lifetime in prison for the parents - and you'll see how quickly it will end!

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby Woods » 2022-02-22, 15:34

OiJoua wrote:
Woods wrote:I asked an Egyptian (come to think of it, I've actually met one, it didn't come to my mind until now!) and he said /äämɛl äl harda/. Nobody has been able to decipher that yet.

عامل ايه النهاردة aamileh innaharda "how's it going today"

Thanks :)

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Re: Which Arabic would it be best to learn?

Postby vijayjohn » 2022-02-22, 15:49

Woods wrote:Actually in the same article where I read that they also said that in 2016 about 87% of women aged 15-49 had undergone that, that authorities had really hard time enforcing the ban and that the punishments were up to three years for the person who has requested it (I guess the so-called mom or dad) and up to seven years for the "surgeon" who performed it.

That article is almost two years old and thus outdated, and most countries have a really hard time enforcing their own laws.


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