Arabic Study Group

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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby voron » 2018-12-29, 18:50

I read parts 2-6 of الاسد والثور

eskandar wrote:In the first sentence, انتظر دمنة مدة طويلة حتی زار الاسد , it seemed a bit ambiguous who زار refers to? I assume it means "Dimna waited a long time until he visited the lion" (zaara'l-asada)

This is how I understood it.

إن السلاطين في قلة اخلاصهم مثل المومس كلما ذهب عنها رجل جاء رجل آخر
Indeed, in their insincerity [paucity of sincerity], the sultans are like a prostitute, whenever a man leaves her another man comes to her
I guess Dimna is complaining about the lion, saying he's insincere, like a prostitute who pretends to love whatever man is currently her client.

I understood it the same way.

قد اعجبني سُمن الثور ولست بحاجة له
I like bull fat and I don't need him [the bull]
Does this mean "I don't need the bull around and I'd like to eat his fat" ?

The first time I read this sentence, I had a problem understanding it as well, because my first idea was:
I like bull fat and I don't need it (the fat),

so I had to re-read it again, and then I realized that له refers to the bull.

I read part 7.
I have doubts about the last sentence, can someone confirm that my understanding is correct?
أنا لا أريد قتال الأسد, و لن أغيّر رأيي فيه حتى أرى أنه قد تغيّر هو
I don't want to fight the lion, and I won't change my opinion about him, even though I see that he has changed.

And I also read part 8, thus finishing the story!
(tr) 120 pages, (ku) Hînker 3: Unit 5/8, (ar) Kalila wa Dimna: p.74/196

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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-12-30, 8:02

voron wrote:I have doubts about the last sentence, can someone confirm that my understanding is correct?
أنا لا أريد قتال الأسد, و لن أغيّر رأيي فيه حتى أرى أنه قد تغيّر هو
I don't want to fight the lion, and I won't change my opinion about him, even though I see that he has changed.

I understood لن أغيّر رأيي فيه حتى أرى أنه قد تغيّر هو as "I won't change my opinion about him until I see that he has changed. I think if it were "even though" it might be worded differently, using ولو in place of حتی .

Did you read the passage from the original text on page 74? It was hard, and a sobering reminder of how much there remains to be learned, even when the prepared texts are mostly easy. Tomorrow I'll revisit the passage and look up the unfamiliar words.
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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby voron » 2018-12-30, 21:29

eskandar wrote:I understood لن أغيّر رأيي فيه حتى أرى أنه قد تغيّر هو as "I won't change my opinion about him until I see that he has changed. I think if it were "even though" it might be worded differently, using ولو in place of حتی .

Thanks! For some reason, "until" didn't make sense to me, but now that I re-read it I see that it fits well.

Did you read the passage from the original text on page 74? It was hard, and a sobering reminder of how much there remains to be learned, even when the prepared texts are mostly easy. Tomorrow I'll revisit the passage and look up the unfamiliar words.

I tried to read it just now. That was hard. :doggy: Here's my attempt at translation:

They said to the fox to come to the forest where there was a drum hanging from a tree, and whenever the wind blew on the branches of that tree, it made them move, and beat the drum. And he heard (=was heard to him) a powerful and overwhelming sound. And the fox went towards it to hear its powerful sound. And he found it enormous and he convinced himself /that it contains/ a lot of fat and meat. And he messed around with it until he split it open, and when he saw it empty, without anything inside, he said: I don't know, maybe the biggest losers/ the vainest of creatures are those with the loudest voice and the greatest body.

I have doubts about the bold parts in this sentence:
فتوجه الثعلب نحوه لأجل ما سمع من عظيم صوته
لأجل ما - is it a single conjunction?
من عظيم صوته - I can't make heads or tails of it. Why is there a personal ending on صوته, and why does the adjective precede the noun?

EDIT: I guess من is "man" (I was reading it as "min"), so the whole phrase means "he went towards it to hear, who is this whose sound is powerful?"

EDIT2: And I forgot to answer the question about where this argument fits in the story. It probably refers to the lion's fear of the sound that came from the lowing bull.
(tr) 120 pages, (ku) Hînker 3: Unit 5/8, (ar) Kalila wa Dimna: p.74/196

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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2018-12-31, 5:40

Great job with the translation! Here's how I understood it:

They claimed that a fox came to a forest where there was a drum hanging from a tree, and whenever the wind blew on the branches of that tree, it made them move, and beat the drum. And he heard (=was heard to him) a powerful and overwhelming sound. And the fox went towards it because of what he heard of its powerful sound. And when he went towards it he found it enormous and he became sure for himself /that it contains/ a lot of fat and meat. And he messed around with it until he split it open, and when he saw it empty, without anything inside, he said: I don't know, maybe the biggest losers/ the vainest of creatures are those with the loudest voice and the strongest body.

voron wrote:لأجل ما - is it a single conjunction?

No, I don't think so. I think it's "because of" (لاجل) + "what" (ما).

I'm a bit confused about that sentence too, though. I read it as "because of what he heard of its powerful sound" but it would make more sense to me if it was لأجل ما سمع من صوته العظيم . It's a shame we don't have more advanced Arabic learners/speakers around anymore to clarify for us.
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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2019-01-06, 7:44

I read الطبيب الجاهل .
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-01-08, 6:57

I finally finished reading الاسد والارنب and listened to it being read, then moved on to السمكات الثلاث and listened to that being read as well. I think I mentioned before that I'm already familiar with the story for الاسد والارنب. I don't think I'm familiar with السمكات الثلاث, but I could be wrong, and it's simple enough, I think. Also WOW the audio is weirdly organized.

Anyway, several weeks ago, related to Arabic but completely unrelated to كليلة ودمنة, I also discovered this clip of the Arabic alphabet song sung by some kids in Malaysia on TV, but buffalaxed so that it became the Sausage Song! Now, just because of this video, I actually know the order of the Arabic alphabet. :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHZScUAH7WY

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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2019-01-08, 20:29

vijayjohn wrote:Also WOW the audio is weirdly organized.

Are you using the archive.org link? What's throwing you off about it? Seemed normal enough to me.
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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2019-01-09, 23:19

voron wrote:I have doubts about the bold parts in this sentence:
فتوجه الثعلب نحوه لأجل ما سمع من عظيم صوته
لأجل ما - is it a single conjunction?


لأجل ما, as we can see, does consist of two words with two individual meanings, so it isn't really a single conjunction.

لأجل: "because of".
ما (in this context): "what".

من عظيم صوته - I can't make heads or tails of it. Why is there a personal ending on صوته, and why does the adjective precede the noun?

The personal ending is there because "3azimi" ends with a kasrah because of the "genitive" case (I'd rather call it al-jarr الجرّ). So "sawtihi" is connected to that majrur مجرور word (i.e. "3azimi"). Together it, literally, means "from the powerful of his sound/voice".

EDIT: I guess من is "man" (I was reading it as "min"), so the whole phrase means "he went towards it to hear, who is this whose sound is powerful?"

The usual tashkil would be a kasrah rather than a fathah. So it would be "min" (of).

And would "man" be possible in this context, too? Unusual at least. Even if (especially) the early Arabic linguists strongly disadvised against stating that something isn't a part of the language without being really certain.

قالوا: عدم العلم ليس علما بالعدم


They said, "the absence of the knowledge isn't [the same as] the knowledge of the absence". I.e. there is a major difference between:
- Not knowing whether something would be used or not
- Knowing that it isn't used.

These are two ways of rephrasing the above where "man" (fathah) definitely is possible:
فتوجه الثعلب نحوه لأجل أنه سمع مَن صوتُه عظيمٌ
فتوجه الثعلب نحوه لأجل أنه سمع مَن عظيمٌ صوتُه


The second example could sound a bit uncommon to some. But still, mentioning "3azimun" before "sawtuhu" is deeply rooted in Standard Arabic as well, even if it is used in MSA less often. Doing so is called التقديم, and it can be done for a certain type of emphasis.

Speaking about animals as "man" rather than "ma" isn't the most common way. However, it does happen, without no doubt, because of the personification that is going on in e.g. fables. Even inanimate objects can be referred to as "man" in some cases, so ... it is fully possible, although the most common way would still be "ma".

eskandar wrote:I'm a bit confused about that sentence too, though. I read it as "because of what he heard of its powerful sound" but it would make more sense to me if it was لأجل ما سمع من صوته العظيم .


The difference between لأجل ما سمع من صوته العظيم and لأجل ما سمع من عظيم صوته is a rather subtle one, although it does exist.

They mean (literal translation):
- because of what he heard from his sound/voice, the powerful
- because of what he heard from (the) powerful of his sound

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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-01-11, 5:53

eskandar wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Also WOW the audio is weirdly organized.

Are you using the archive.org link?

Yep.
What's throwing you off about it? Seemed normal enough to me.

Because the next story after الاسد والثور in the text is الطبيب الجاهل, but the last part of الاسد والثور is file #26 whereas الطبيب الجاهل is file #43.

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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2019-01-11, 8:34

vijayjohn wrote:Also also, why does this book seem to keep dropping initial hamzas below alif? E.g. الى instead of إلى.

eskandar wrote:They're often dropped, especially with words like الی where there's no homonym with which it could be confused (so the initial hamza is basically as inconsequential as the i3raab which are also left unwritten).

As you said, eskandar, the همَزات القطع hamazatul-qat3 of the Alif are often dropped because of various reasons. And on the other hand, a lot of همَزات الوصل hamazatul-wasl aren't written as such, but as همزات القطع instead. An example is a Coca Cola Ad: إشرب كوكا كولا.

When referring to the rules of الصرف as-sarf (morphology), it would be اشرب instead. But nowadays, this verb often is also pronounced as if it had a همزة القطع. So some (or many) would say وإشرب كوكا كولا "wa ishrab Coca Cola" instead of واشرب كوكا كولا "washrab Coca Cola".

eskandar wrote:I read الخداع والمغفل and الجرذان والحديد . I have a question about plurals like جرذان or غربان , etc. Does the dual look identical when unvocalized? In other words, do we have:

جرذ juradh singular
جرذان juradhaan dual
جرذان jurdhaan plural

Yes, the dual and plural forms of a word like this do look identical when unvocalized. But this applies to the dual in the الرفع case only. Because in الجر and النصب, it would be جُرذين juradhayn(i) instead of جرذان juradhan(i) instead.

The plural of this particular word could start with either a Dammah or a Kasrah.

Another thing that could be kept in mind is that some مصادرُ masadir(u) [*] end in a long Fathah vowel following a Nun, too.

[*] A مصدر masdar is a "verbal substantive". I.e. a noun that expresses the action of a verb being done. And yes, the plural of masdar doesn't have any تنوين, it doesn't end in "-un", but in "-u" only.

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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2019-01-18, 21:41

I read الفحص عن امر دمنة ۱ .

I looked up عاتب يعاتب "to scold" and محتال "crook, scoundrel, cheat" (I knew the latter was related to a verb we had earlier, احتال , but wasn't sure of the precise meaning).
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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2019-01-19, 0:19

eskandar wrote:I read الفحص عن امر دمنة ۱ .

I looked up عاتب يعاتب "to scold" and محتال "crook, scoundrel, cheat" (I knew the latter was related to a verb we had earlier, احتال , but wasn't sure of the precise meaning).

All those محتال meanings are as you said. However, we shouldn't forget that this word isn't restricted to it. الحِيلَة، والكَيْد can also be an entirely good thing. This محتال and كَيّاد wouldn't be saying anything that isn't true, but he/she would be using some "tricks" only. The same for الخِداع، والمكر أيضا, even if their second meaning often is forgotten. The term مكر السّيّئ doesn't exist without a reason.

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Re: Arabic Study Group

Postby eskandar » 2019-01-19, 22:51

أكيد، صدقت، كما يقال في القرآن «واللّه خير الماكرين».
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