voron - Arabic

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voron - Arabic

Postby voron » 2016-12-25, 16:33

I'll post my questions about Arabic here.

I've been listening to this song of Fairuz:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuxVz0KXmO4

Lyrics: http://lyricstranslate.com/tr/i7kili-7k ... ll-me.html

The first line goes like this:
إحكيلي إحكيلي عن بلدي إحكيلي

My understanding is that إحكيلي is the imperative form of the verb حكي to talk, with the 1st p.sg. personal pronoun appended. Why does it end with "li" and not "ni"? Or is it the preposition "li" plus the pronoun (which would be spelt separately in MSA)?
Last edited by voron on 2018-04-28, 14:34, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: voron - Levantine Arabic

Postby Saim » 2016-12-26, 3:21

I may be totally off base here but isn't li ("to me") dative and ni accusative?

iodalach93

Re: voron - Levantine Arabic

Postby iodalach93 » 2016-12-26, 13:36

Lebanese Arabic mixes them a lot. In Syria and else where in the Levant it's always 7aka/7eki + dative (tell me! = احكيلي), but in Lebanon it can be followed by accusative clitics as well (احكيني).

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Re: voron - Levantine Arabic

Postby voron » 2016-12-26, 13:51

Saim wrote:I may be totally off base here but isn't li ("to me") dative and ni accusative?

Is there such a thing as dative in dialects? In MSA, "give me" is أعطني and "tell me" is قل لي, that is, there is no special clitic for a dative pronoun.

I've started Pimsleur Eastern Arabic from which I've learnt how they say "tell me" in Syrian, it's hilarious:
to a man: 'illi
to a woman: 'ili:li,
which apparently comes from قل but it has become hardly recognizable.

iodalach93, which grammar do you use for Levantine? There is this one:
https://books.google.by/books/about/A_R ... edir_esc=y

which seems to be very good, although the font is a bit annoying for the eyes. Is there anything else?

I've found some Turkish series which I used to watch, dubbed into the Syrian dialect. They sound so good! I want to watch a few episodes (I don't understand much but I know the plot already).
Asi - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XXHOrPPZZ0
(in original Turkish - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xs8myogRBU)

iodalach93

Re: voron - Levantine Arabic

Postby iodalach93 » 2016-12-26, 14:55

That one is indeed the most accurate grammar for Levantine Arabic, I rely mostly on that one as well.

Anyway, being my focus Lebanese Arabic, I also rely on Kamal Osman's grammar, which is incomplete in some parts and less "academic" that Cowell's one, but otherwise nicely done. I sometimes have a look at this blog as well, home-made by a student but pretty accurate and with lots of audio files and cultural facts.

I use Levantine Colloquial Arabic Project as a reference for vocabulary, apart from Stowasser and Ani's dictionary.

Happy to share, it's really difficult to find good online material on Levantine Arabic.

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Re: voron - Levantine Arabic

Postby Anima Benedicta » 2017-01-16, 20:38

voron wrote:My understanding is that إحكيلي is the imperative form of the verb حكي to talk, with the 1st p.sg. personal pronoun appended. Why does it end with "li" and not "ni"? Or is it the preposition "li" plus the pronoun (which would be spelt separately in MSA)?


Just my two cents here (as a native Palestinian Levantine Arabic speaker): Exactly, "lī" is simply the preposition "li-" plus the attached 1st pers. sing. pronoun "-ī." حكى essentially acts like قال in that it takes the "li-" preposition rather than being followed directly by an attached pronoun (with one exception, see below). And yes, it would be spelled separately in MSA. :) But then again, the spelling in Levantine Arabic, as in all dialects, is not standardized. Using the spelling "إحكيلي" or "إحكي لي" is simply a matter of personal preference and neither would be deemed "incorrect."

voron wrote:Is there such a thing as dative in dialects? In MSA, "give me" is أعطني and "tell me" is قل لي, that is, there is no special clitic for a dative pronoun.


As in, a dative "case" being indicated in a noun? From an Arabic grammar point of view, there is no dative case in Arabic (neither in MSA nor in dialects/عامّية), so you're right about that.

voron wrote:I've started Pimsleur Eastern Arabic from which I've learnt how they say "tell me" in Syrian, it's hilarious:
to a man: 'illi
to a woman: 'ili:li,
which apparently comes from قل but it has become hardly recognizable.


True, the end result sounds very different, but I think that if you look at the transformation from A to B, it will makes sense.
1) (MSA) qul lī, then the qāf phoneme changed to a glottal stop, and you get: 2) (Levantine Arabic) 'ul lī, or 'ulli (which is how Palestinians say it), but the Syrian dialect changed the ḍamma to a kasra so you get: 3) 'illī

But I agree, it sounds quite different. I wonder how and why all the sound shifts happened... :hmm:

iodalach93 wrote:Lebanese Arabic mixes them a lot. In Syria and else where in the Levant it's always 7aka/7eki + dative (tell me! = احكيلي), but in Lebanon it can be followed by accusative clitics as well (احكيني).


Interesting... Personally, I've only heard the Lebanese mix "lī" and "-nī" whenever the verb meant "to speak" or "to talk" (as opposed to "to tell" or "to say"), as for example, in the phrase, "حاكيتُه وحاكاني" ("We talked to each other," or literally, "I spoke to him and he spoke to me"). I've never heard the verb with the attached pronoun "-nī" whenever the construction required a direct object (which it would if it were to mean "to tell" or "to say"), as in, e.g. "إحْكِي لي قصّة" ("Tell me a story.")

Maybe some Lebanese dialects do switch them in the second instance. Well, I guess I learned something new. :)
Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor!
Und bin so klug, als wie zuvor. - Faust- Goethe

في القدسِ من في القدسِ لكنْ
لا أَرَى في القدسِ إلا أَنْتْ
"في القدس" - تميم البرغوثي

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Re: voron - Levantine Arabic

Postby voron » 2017-01-27, 12:24

Thanks Anima!

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Re: voron - Levantine Arabic

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-04, 18:24

Anima Benedicta wrote:True, the end result sounds very different, but I think that if you look at the transformation from A to B, it will makes sense.
1) (MSA) qul lī, then the qāf phoneme changed to a glottal stop, and you get: 2) (Levantine Arabic) 'ul lī, or 'ulli (which is how Palestinians say it), but the Syrian dialect changed the ḍamma to a kasra so you get: 3) 'illī

But I agree, it sounds quite different. I wonder how and why all the sound shifts happened... :hmm:

I don't see anything surprising about that tbh; these are pretty common sound changes in the languages of the world AFAIK. Glottal stops are much more common than uvular ones, and vowel harmony is a thing.

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Re: voron - Arabic

Postby voron » 2018-04-28, 14:31

Digging up my old thread and renaming it from Levantine Arabic to just Arabic.

I want to translate this Egyptian song, for which I couldn't find the English translation.
محمود العسيلي ومحمود الليثي - خاينة
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVti-7rSCvs


خاينة نسيت اللي قلنا أنا وأنتي عليه
قلنا هنبعد وننسى بترجعي ليه
ده احنا حاولنا وفشلنا وقلنا خلاص
راجعة نعيد اللي فات على اي اساس

كل لما اعرف واحدة تانية
بتقومي الدنيا في ثانية
انتي مالك بقى بيا وبحياتي

غلبتيني من المطاردة
وساعات بتبقي باردة
انتي بجد لخبطيلي حياتي
Traitor, you forgot what we said about it, you and I
We said that we'd move away and forget, you're returning - why?
Look at us *, we tried and we failed, and we said "enough"
You're returning, we're repeating what had passed, on what basis?

Every time when I get to know some other (girl)
You raise the world in a second (=get angry)
You have become the owner of me and my life **

You have overcome me in this chase
And sometimes you remain cold/shameless/blunt ***
You have seriously messed me up, my life ****


* دا seems to be an exclamation particle here, see
http://livingarabic.com/dictionaries?dc ... 8%AF%D8%A7

** Have I understood this correctly? I'm confused with 3 things:
مالك - Why is it masculine?
بقى - Is it an auxilary verb here with the meaning "to become" (just like Syrian صار)? Why doesn't it agree with the subject (=you)?
بيا - Does it mean "of me" (=the owner of me)?

*** Not sure which translation to pick here
**** The verb is لخبط - that's a fun verb!
http://livingarabic.com/dictionaries?dc ... 8%A8%D8%B7
Last edited by voron on 2018-04-28, 15:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: voron - Arabic

Postby voron » 2018-04-28, 15:51


هو مش كنا اتفقنا
ان راحتنا فراقنا
وانتي قلتيلي ساعتها بالسلامة

ليه بتزني زي النحلة
ده انتي سحلة نفسك سحلة
ما تخليكي جامدة وكملي اتامة

لما كان في بينا حاجة
ضيعتيها وبسذاجة
وانهاردة جاية تندمي عليها
It's not what we were agreeing on --
for our comfort to separate
And you told me it's time for goodbye

Why do you sting me like a bee
Look, you yourself are worn out
Why don't you let yourself be cool and complete (?) *

When there was something between us
You wasted it -- and you are in innocence
And today you're coming to make me regret about it


* Some guesswork here and in the previous line
سحلة - I couldn't find this word as an adjective
ما - I remembered from a song Saim posted that ما can mean "why don't you": ما تجي هينا - why don't you come here
جامد - livingarabic.com says it can mean cool and awesome
اتامة - Couldn't find it, no idea what it is

Egyptian is fun! :partyhat:

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Re: voron - Arabic

Postby eskandar » 2018-04-29, 6:29

ما شاء الله عليك يا اخويا انا مندهش بنجاحك و بقدرتك في العربي

voron wrote:اتامة - Couldn't find it, no idea what it is

Could it be التامة ?
Away from Unilang until further notice.

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Re: voron - Arabic

Postby voron » 2018-04-29, 13:40

eskandar wrote:
ما شاء الله عليك يا اخويا انا مندهش بنجاحك و بقدرتك في العربي

:) شكرا يا اخ. بتعرف انو لازم اتعلم عربي حتى احكي مع جيراني
Could it be التامة ?

Yes, maybe.

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Re: voron - Arabic

Postby voron » 2018-05-10, 7:30

I thought something was wrong with me that I couldn't for the life of me remember if منشان and عشان mean "so that" or "because". Apparently, they can mean both, as I just found out from livingarabic.com.

If the following verb is in the subjunctive mood, the meaning is "so that", and if it is in the indicative mood, the meaning is "because".

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Re: voron - Arabic

Postby voron » 2018-06-12, 0:44

Here's my attempt at transcript of this video featuring a Palestinian girl. The Arabic part starts at 0:28. She speaks slowly and the topic is languages, so it's easy to understand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqOtvem2dxs


Transcript:
اللغة العربية, الها اكتر من لهجة وحدة. و بتتغير من بلد لبلد, و مرات من منطقة للتنية. و بتأثر على شخصية الناس كتير. و مرات لما يسفرو على منطقة تنية بيصرو ? يحكو متل الناس التنيين عشان يتفهمو معهن. و مرات لما يجو عالبيت بينسو اللغة الأصلية و بيصيرو يستملو لهجات تنيين و كلمات تنيين من منطقة تانية. و عشان هيك بيتأثر كتير على شخصية

Translation:
The Arabic language is more than one dialect. It changes from country to country, and sometimes from one region to another. And it influences people's personality a lot. Sometimes when they travel to another region, they start speaking like the other people, so that they understand each other. And sometimes when they come home, they forget their original language, and start using other dialects and other words from the other region. This way it influences the personality a lot.

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Re: voron - Arabic

Postby Saim » 2018-06-17, 19:46

voron wrote:

Transcript:
بيصرو ? يحكو



Isn't this بِدّهُن from the verb بِدّ? I.e. they start wanting to like the other people.

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Re: voron - Arabic

Postby eskandar » 2018-06-18, 16:31

I agree with Saim, it's بدّهن .

voron wrote: يستملو

* يستعملو

Nice job! You should submit your captioning and translation to Wikitongues!
Away from Unilang until further notice.


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