Help with Arabic word

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Migra
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Help with Arabic word

Postby Migra » 2016-07-21, 11:16

Hi!

I need help with the etimology of one Arabic word:

"migra", meaning watercourse or water channel in Arabic.

Please, see this pdf file
Migra word Arabic.pdf
with the Arabic writing of this word migra.

My questions are:

1. Has this Arabic word any other meaning aside watercourse or water channel?
2. Is it mainstream (classic) Arabic or is a regionalism from, let's say, Northern Africa?

Any advice is welcome!
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ahmed_crow
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Re: Help with Arabic word

Postby ahmed_crow » 2016-08-12, 17:45

I think it's not written correctly in the pdf file and there's a missed letter, if you can see arabic fonts in your system I think the word you're mean is "مجرى"

I think the correct or the proper pronunction as a native arabian is "Magra", not "migra", and it's a word of the classical arabic, it's 100% arabic word.

I think it comes from the verb "gara", which means "ran" of "run". So imagine the water when it's running, the word "Magra" describes the place of water when it's running, like you said the water channel, the word "magra" is connected to it's verb too, so feel the arabic meaning.

It's not only for water, you can use the word to describe the channel of many liquids and somethings.

I hope that I helped you. :)

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Re: Help with Arabic word

Postby linguoboy » 2016-08-12, 19:20

Wouldn't the Classical reading actually be maj? The change of /j/ > [g] is absolutely post-Classical and confined to Egypt. This would make migra at best a colloquial Egyptian mispronunciation of a Classical Arabic word.
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Re: Help with Arabic word

Postby ahmed_crow » 2016-08-12, 19:57

I didn't determined the pronunction of "g" in "magra", it's my fault, but I supposed it'll be understood, in classical arabic you can say "Majra", not "Mijra", the classical arabic pronunction of "magra" is closed to the egyptian dialect "magra", the diffrence is in the pronunction of "g".

The pronunction of "g" in classical arabic can be soft "j" like j in "jaguar", but the other one is hard like g in "college", some dictionaries make symbols like: "d3" for "judge" and "3" for "measure".

Those of Lebanon and Palastine and who like them will say the classical arabic word "magra" like g of "measure", but those of Saudi Arabia and old Arabs(I suppose) will say it like g in "judge".

I didn't mean the Egyptian pronunction of g in "Magra".

As a native speaker I prefer to say "Magra" or "Majra" like g or j of "judge".

If you found "Mijra" and j like "measure" , it'll be like the pronunction of Lebanon people or Palastine or Syria or Jordan, it's not the fluent pronunction of classical arabic or uncorrectly, the fluent one of it is "Majra" and j like j or g in "judge".

Forgive my weak English, I'm so good in Arabic but bad in English.

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Re: Help with Arabic word

Postby linguoboy » 2016-08-12, 20:35

ahmed_crow wrote:The pronunction of "g" in classical arabic can be soft "j" like j in "jaguar", but the other one is hard like g in "college"

These two words have exactly the same 'j' sound in every native variety of English I'm familiar with, i.e. [ʤ] ("'j' as in 'judge'"). If I heard this word with [ʒ] ("'s' as in 'measure'"), I would assume I was dealing with a hyperforeignism.

(By the way, those symbols that "some dictionaries" use are actually letters of the International Phonetic Alphabet. As the name suggests, they are the international standard for phonetic representation of pronunciation.
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Re: Help with Arabic word

Postby ahmed_crow » 2016-08-12, 20:54

linguoboy wrote:These two words have exactly the same 'j' sound in every native variety of English I'm familiar with, i.e. [ʤ] ("'j' as in 'judge'"). If I heard this word with [ʒ] ("'s' as in 'measure'"), I would assume I was dealing with a hyperforeignism.


I checked out a copy of Longman dictionary I have, and I found "dʒ" is used in both of "jaguar" and "college", you're right, and this is exactly pronunction we want in classical arabic, not like "s as in measure".

The holy quran is highest Classical Arabic, there's no "s as in measure" pronunction in it, it's all like j or g in "judge".

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cHr0mChIk
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Re: Help with Arabic word

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2016-09-01, 8:44

.
Last edited by cHr0mChIk on 2019-12-25, 13:41, edited 1 time in total.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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ahmed_crow
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Re: Help with Arabic word

Postby ahmed_crow » 2017-01-03, 17:13

cHr0mChIk wrote:
ahmed_crow wrote:The holy quran is highest Classical Arabic, there's no "s as in measure" pronunction in it, it's all like j or g in "judge".


The Holy Qur'an is a text. Also, it's 14 centuries old. The letter could've been pronounced any way, we don't know, so it's not much of an argument.

However, yes, an argument could be that Tajweed, indeed is something which is learned and passed from generation to generation and that, based on that, it's pronunciation is accurate. But, even so, the language constantly changes and evolves, and not even that is a solid proof of the correct pronunciation of ج.

Even, so, we do have something on which we can rely, which shows us the pronunciation of Classical Arabic letters, and that is the 8th century book "الكتاب" (Al-Kitab) by Sibawayh, which says:

"وبين وسط الحنك األعلى مخرج الجيم والشين والياء"
From between the tongue and the palate are the sounds of geem, sheen, and ya'.
(433/4)

Sibawayh pairs ج with ش and ي by the places of articulation, and by his description, they can be realized as /ɟ/, /ɕ/, and /j/.

So, there you have it. The Classical Arabic pronunciation of ج was as a "voiced palatal plosive" /ɟ/, the way it's pronounced in Sudanese Arabic. :)


Quran is a text, yes, but it's not a normal text in Arabic language, for example gospels have writers, and gospels are not necessary to be the highest level in langauge that they were written in it, but Quran has no writers, God said it all, said all words and structers inside it, it's the highest level in the arabic language, so many native Arabs and I'm one of them are making the Quran to be the standard source of Arabic language.

Anyway, if you don't like my opinion, you can use what you like.

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Re: Help with Arabic word

Postby cHr0mChIk » 2017-01-04, 2:13

.
Last edited by cHr0mChIk on 2019-12-25, 13:42, edited 1 time in total.
وَقَالُوا لَن يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ ۗ تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ ۗ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

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ahmed_crow
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Re: Help with Arabic word

Postby ahmed_crow » 2017-01-04, 15:48

cHr0mChIk wrote:
ahmed_crow wrote:Quran is a text, yes, but it's not a normal text in Arabic language, for example gospels have writers, and gospels are not necessary to be the highest level in langauge that they were written in it, but Quran has no writers, God said it all, said all words and structers inside it, it's the highest level in the arabic language, so many native Arabs and I'm one of them are making the Quran to be the standard source of Arabic language.


Sure, Akhi. I have no problem with what you say - what I said is not related to this, what I said is related to the pronunciation only.

Yes, the Qur'an-i-Kareem is as it is from it's earliest times until today - we know, because we have manuscripts to prove it. And there's no problem with the "written" part of it. But the exact pronunciation of the Qur'an, and each 7arf we don't know for sure... the only thing which we could consult regarding this are some books of those times which deal with this subject exactly... like Sibawayh's al-Kitab.

Salaam.


I understand you, don't worry my brother in the real Arabic pronunciation, every generation of Arabs knows the pronunciation of the 28 Arabic letters, no doubt in that, but the problem comes in the modern generation of Arabs, the new ages of Arabs, they don't pronounce the 28 letters like past days, we don't lean on the old books to know the real pronounciation of the Arabic letters.

The 28 Arabic letters are clear and so simple for Arabs, Arabic so clear to me, I found many problems to pronounce the vowels in english, there's many vowels, you don't have more than 3 basicly vowels in Arabic, beleive me Arabic pronounciation is so clear but not so easy for tongues that speak another languages.

In Quran some words can be pronounced with more than one way, these words are so few in Quran and the amazing thing that words don't change the general meaning of the verse, the problem here isn't exactly the pronounciation but that some letters have the same shape of another letters, the old font of Quran has no points or marks that make you make differences between the similar letters those have the same shape.


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