باترسلاف - العربية (Patrislav)

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Патрислав Андреевич

باترسلاف - العربية (Patrislav)

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-11-08, 17:36

.
أهلاً!


This will be my personal topic for learning Modern Standard Arabic. :) My goal is mostly intermediate reading skills, to be able to read and understand MSA news, literature, etc. Using the language in real life would also be cool, if I ever need it. I don’t plan on learning any dialect though, so I don’t know..

I’ll be using two books that I’ve got in PDFs: Ahlan wa Sahlan, Living Language Ultimate Arabic, and some grammar as a supplement. For now I’ve only gone through the first lesson of Living Language and the first one of Ahlan wa Sahlan. Can’t really decide which one is better so I’ll use both probably. :lol:

I’ll use this thread to post my progress and ask questions about problems I encounter in Arabic. :)

إلی اللقــاء!
Last edited by Патрислав Андреевич on 2015-01-22, 22:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Meera » 2013-11-08, 18:52

Hello Xivrox, good luck with your Arabic!
अहिंसा/เจ
True Love: (hi)
TAC 2017: (hi) (ja) (ko)

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-11-11, 20:42

Hello and thank you, Meera! :)

It’s the time for my first Arabic text ever! :lol:

أهْلاً!

إسْمي باتْريك. أنا بولَنْدي أنا مِن بولَنْدا.

أسْكُن في مَدينة شْريمْ قَريب بوزنان.

أنا طالِب. أتعلم أللغة ألعربية.


I still struggle with the script; even though I have a rough idea what the individual characters are, when reading it’s more like ‘deciphering’ it. And I’m afraid it’ll stay like that for veeery long time. Even texts in cyrillic (which I know for almost 3 years) I read substantially slower than latin ones. :?

The second thing is … the vowels, obviously. I have yet to find a good English-Arabic dictionary with full vocalisation… Google Translate spits out unvocalised phrases and the pronunciation it provides isn’t the best quality which leaves me without any idea what vowels there are. :x For example the last sentence in the text above. It’s from Google and I included it here because I’d like to know if it’s correct and its vocalisation; I find the phrase important, and it’s a shame it wasn’t in the early lessons of my book. :D My guess is:

أَتعَلَّمُ أَللُغة أَلْعَرَبِيّة

but something tells me it’s wrong.


Btw. it’s really hard to type Arabic. :shock: With all the cursor jumping around the text, right-to-left writing, additional tags, and all stuff like that. I also had to put blank lines in between because otherwise the vocal marks weren’t visible. My God, terrible.

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Meera » 2013-11-12, 18:33

Your text was really good!
अहिंसा/เจ
True Love: (hi)
TAC 2017: (hi) (ja) (ko)

Патрислав Андреевич

Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-11-12, 19:00

Wow, thanks, I haven’t expected it! Even the try at vocalising (especially the last phrase)? That’s pretty cool. :D

I must say the more I study Arabic the more I like it. So I had to open the grammar and… was amazed at what I found inside! I haven’t thought I would find such similarities to Akkadian, especially in so basic stuff like case declension, which as far as I remember is the same. Also creating the feminine! I must still read more about it though. :)

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Zireael » 2013-11-13, 16:13

Where did you get the books in pdf form? The net turns up nothing... (at least nothing affordable)
Native: [flag=]pl[/flag] Very advanced/near native: [flag=]en-US[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]es[/flag]
Beginner [flag=]de[/flag], [flag=]sgn[/flag], [flag=]tpi[/flag], [flag=]en_old[/flag], [flag=]ar[/flag]
Wanderlusting: [flag=]ja[/flag], [flag=]ru[/flag]
Artificial languages: [flag=]art-qya[/flag], [flag=]art-sjn[/flag],
My interest has been drawn by: [flag=]fa[/flag], [flag=]zh[/flag],

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-11-13, 16:26

Well… I haven’t acquired them in a legal way by the rules of this forum… But I have an excuse since it’s impossible to buy them here at an affordable price. 150-200 PLN for a book is NOT my budget. :roll:

However if you like living risky and on the edge of the law, I can send you some.

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Meera » 2013-11-14, 4:03

The Living Language one is excellent.
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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby YngNghymru » 2013-11-15, 17:55

xivrox wrote:
أهْلاً!

إسْمي باتْريك. أنا بولَنْدي أنا مِن بولَنْدا.

أسْكُن في مَدينة شْريمْ قَريب بوزنان.



مدينة شريم, قريبة من مدينة بوزنان

madīnah is feminine, so you either need feminine agreement on qarīb or a ḥāl clause (although I'm not sure that would work here) قريبًا من (I feel like this would imply that Poznan is a part of Srém). You also need min 'from' (i.e. 'near to'), you can't just say 'near Poznan'. You could say في قُرب fī qurbi too. Also strictly speaking اسم has no hamza, or rather has a hamzat waṣl.

I still struggle with the script; even though I have a rough idea what the individual characters are, when reading it’s more like ‘deciphering’ it. And I’m afraid it’ll stay like that for veeery long time. Even texts in cyrillic (which I know for almost 3 years) I read substantially slower than latin ones. :?


Yes, it will, but it gets better with practice. Just keep at it, there's no quick solution.

The second thing is … the vowels, obviously. I have yet to find a good English-Arabic dictionary with full vocalisation… Google Translate spits out unvocalised phrases and the pronunciation it provides isn’t the best quality which leaves me without any idea what vowels there are. :x For example the last sentence in the text above. It’s from Google


Don't use google translate, you'll get nowhere. Use aratools or wordreference.

أَتعَلَّمُ أَللُغة أَلْعَرَبِيّة

but something tells me it’s wrong.


It is wrong, though not that wrong. أَتَعَلَّمُ ٱلْلُّغَةَ ٱلْعَرَبِيَّةَ.
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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Babelfish » 2013-11-15, 18:04

The vowels are displayed so not clearly that i can't even understand what you've corrected :x
YngNghymru wrote:Also strictly speaking اسم has no hamza, or rather has a hamzat waṣl.
Isn't it supposed to have hamza in the beginning of a sentence?
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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Zireael » 2013-11-16, 13:45

I second the Aratools suggestion.
Native: [flag=]pl[/flag] Very advanced/near native: [flag=]en-US[/flag]
Intermediate: [flag=]es[/flag]
Beginner [flag=]de[/flag], [flag=]sgn[/flag], [flag=]tpi[/flag], [flag=]en_old[/flag], [flag=]ar[/flag]
Wanderlusting: [flag=]ja[/flag], [flag=]ru[/flag]
Artificial languages: [flag=]art-qya[/flag], [flag=]art-sjn[/flag],
My interest has been drawn by: [flag=]fa[/flag], [flag=]zh[/flag],

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby YngNghymru » 2013-11-16, 14:52

Babelfish wrote:Isn't it supposed to have hamza in the beginning of a sentence?


I'm never quite sure what the rules are on spelling hamzat waṣl and qaṭʿ. One of my teachers did this (e.g. spelling imperatives with ء in isolation) but everything on google and in Badawi, Carter and Gully seems to suggest that the classical practice is to always write them without hamza.
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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-11-16, 16:25

Thank you YngNghymru!

So the last sentence should look like:

أسْكُن في مَدينة شْريم، قَريبة مِن مَدينة بوزنان.


Ok, got it. :) About اسم however.. It’s strange because one book doesn’t show hamza in any position, but another shows it in every position. It’s always إسم, for example in ماإسمك , at the beginning of a sentence إسمي and so on... Which leaves me confused. :?

Thank you for the last vocalisation as well, I guess the alifs of اللعة and العربية both have hamzat waSl. How could I forget that the ال always have it. :roll: What I noticed is: do you need to vocalize both ة and a preceding consonant with a fatHa? Wouldn’t be a fatHa on that consonant enough?

Also, I didn’t know about Aratools, and it looks great for now, so thank you for that too! :D

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby YngNghymru » 2013-11-16, 22:33

ـة is maftūḥ because the word as a whole is manṣūb (accusative). If you haven't learnt about cases yet you can forget that for a while; although they are a very basic part of the grammar in some respects much of the system can be ignored when first teaching Arabic because cases only show up in writing in a relatively restricted set of contexts.

What book is teaching you ماإسمك? By any prescriptive standard of Arabic this is wrong. It should be ما اسمك؟ - mā 'smu-ka?
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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-11-16, 22:52

YngNghymru wrote:ـة is maftūḥ because the word as a whole is manṣūb (accusative). If you haven't learnt about cases yet you can forget that for a while; although they are a very basic part of the grammar in some respects much of the system can be ignored when first teaching Arabic because cases only show up in writing in a relatively restricted set of contexts.

Yeah, I’ve read a little about cases in a grammar, but I haven’t learnt about them in the course yet, so didn’t know what to expect really. Thanks!

What book is teaching you ماإسمك? By any prescriptive standard of Arabic this is wrong. It should be ما اسمك؟ - mā 'smu-ka?

Living Language Ultimate Arabic, here is a screenshot of the dialogue where it appears. Obviously, I made a mistake myself too, there is a space between ما and اسم:

ما إسْمُكِ؟


As seen, there are hamzas over/under every word-initial alif. :para:

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby YngNghymru » 2013-11-16, 23:05

It's wrong, don't copy it. Also it is a bit weird to respond to ما اسمك with the same, better to include an independent pronoun like وأنت ما اسمك؟ or whatever
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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-11-16, 23:13

Okay, I won’t treat their orthography too seriously then. Strange there’s such a mistake, though. :roll: Also, thanks for the suggestion!

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby Babelfish » 2013-11-22, 18:13

Native speakers have sort of corrected me in "The Next Person" game, not to bother writing a hamza in the beginning of a sentence, e.g. on the first word of الشخص التالي... but this may have to do with the style of unvocalized text, and I'm not familiar with this habit.

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Re: xivrox - العربية

Postby YngNghymru » 2013-11-22, 18:37

Yeah I have never seen hamza written on al-, and I think it is generally considered wrong. There are plenty of examples you've probably seen (إسم, إستفتاح, إجتهاد) but although these are widespread and acceptable this reflects a general tendency of treating these historically epenthetic i- vowels as non-elidable. I suspect this may also be behind the writing of the hamza on the imperative, for example.
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