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culúrien
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Postby culúrien » 2005-12-29, 16:39

Hi. I'm new to learning català. I just wanted to say hi and to ask what are the differences between català, valencià, and Balear. As I understand their dialects? I haven't really heard any information on Balear at all.
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allemaalmeezinge
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Postby allemaalmeezinge » 2005-12-29, 17:12

no diguis à un valènciano que parleu català o.O
(almenys no à shakk :P)
There are some differences but I think they are of course intelligible. The biggest difference could be the so called Balearic article they use on the Balears ("sa" etc.) Besides that there are some natural differences in the vocabulary, for example the word for "please" ("Susplau") is only used in Catalonia, whilst on the Balears and in València "per favor" is used -- as far as I know.

The mallorquí has too a change in the conjugation of verbs. It seems that it's losening the person-marking last vowel. Example:
Catalan: Jo canto
Valencian: Jo cante
Mallorquí: Jo cant

For the Balearic article, it corresponds as it follows:
masculine
Catalan: el, els
Balearic: es, ets
feminine
Catalan: la, les
Balearic: sa, ses

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Postby culúrien » 2005-12-29, 17:58

gracias para tu ayuda! :lol:

Let´s just hope I don´t mix up my español and català
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Postby allemaalmeezinge » 2005-12-29, 18:03

my pleasure, the thing is I'm a very beginner, too, we have to wait for our Catalan Unilangers to give more information if needed :p
I just wanted to give a first impression of the general situation as noone else seemed to have been around o.O
:)

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Postby elxiquet » 2005-12-31, 14:14

Benvingut Celebrian :)

Yabba said some differences, the most important i would say. You can find more information in wikipedia :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balearic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language

I think differences are bigger in spoken rather than in written language. At least between valencian and catalan.

By the way, I'm valencian and you can say catalans speak valencian too. :)

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Postby culúrien » 2005-12-31, 15:34

Thanks for your help! I'll be sure to read up on it! :P
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Postby Guillem » 2005-12-31, 17:19

Welcome celebrian23, I'm very glad you joined our club :) You know I'm here to answer anything related to it.

Yes, they are dialects, and our fellow students have summed up most of the differences. I hear there is a mutual intelligility of around 95%, the lexicon differences being not big enough to suppose a problem. Not at all!

By the way, Yabba, the Balearic article (called "salat") and derived from Latin ipse/ipsa instead of ille/illa is as it follows:

masculine
Catalan: el, els
Balearic: es, es
feminine
Catalan: la, les
Balearic: sa, ses

It was apparently common in old Catalan, that's why you still can find it in some other places of the Catalan-speaking world and in some place names.

In some dialects you can find lo instead of el too.

I might elaborate on this later on, I'm not in my best moment right now, but feel free to ask whenever you have a doubt.

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Postby allemaalmeezinge » 2006-01-01, 10:20

graciès per sa correcció ¬¬

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Postby Guillem » 2006-01-02, 20:38

yabba wrote:graciès per sa correcció ¬¬

:P
No es mereixen!
De totes formes només era un petit error, ara em sento horrible lol :oops:

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Postby elxiquet » 2006-01-02, 22:12

665 wrote: Yes, they are dialects, and our fellow students have summed up most of the differences. I hear there is a mutual intelligility of around 95%, the lexicon differences being not big enough to suppose a problem. Not at all!


:arrow: Central Catalan has about 90% to 95% inherent intelligibility to speakers of Valencian (R. A. Hall, Jr., 1989).

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=cat

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Postby Guillem » 2006-01-03, 7:33

elxiquet wrote:
665 wrote: Yes, they are dialects, and our fellow students have summed up most of the differences. I hear there is a mutual intelligility of around 95%, the lexicon differences being not big enough to suppose a problem. Not at all!


:arrow: Central Catalan has about 90% to 95% inherent intelligibility to speakers of Valencian (R. A. Hall, Jr., 1989).

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=cat

My own intelligebility with Valencians must be of nearly 100% 8) lol But I still can think of some confusing vocabulary, for instance I remember my friend Alícia from Alacant says "granera" for broom, and I didn't understand that the first time I heard it :lol: despite the fact, according to textbooks, in Lleida people say granera and not escombra :shock: which is false, and I had never heard it before!

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Postby elxiquet » 2006-01-03, 13:34

Hehe yeah, that is about Central Catalan, i guess your catalan is nearer ours.

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Postby Guillem » 2006-01-16, 3:37

elxiquet wrote:Hehe yeah, that is about Central Catalan, i guess your catalan is nearer ours.

Hehe yes it is indeed, (although I like to fake other dialects :P I take pleasure out of it lolol) and I was casually discussing last week the similarities and differences between Catalan as spoken in Lleida and Valencian in the chat. :)

Given the fact that the varieties of Valencia and Lleida belong to the Western group of dialects, we reached the following conclusions. :P Note that some of them are merely pragmatic:

- The (discussed ad nauseam, sorry :P) first person of singular in present is -o [o] in Lleida, -e[e] in the land of Valencia.
- In Valencia, final -r of infinitives are pronounced, while in Lleida (as in Central Catalan) are invariably dropped.
- Some differences in vocabulary! :) And I guess the influence of Catalan media is making our vocabulary closer to its central counterpart among younger people ;)
- In Valencia, nowadays "v" and "b" may represent different phonemes or not, it's up to the speaker (although the official norm says they should be v=[v] b=[b]&[B]). The variety of Lleida, however, follows the trend of most modern Catalan variants and doesn't distinguish those sounds.
- In Lleida, final a is neutralised to [E] in the 99% of cases :) while this doesn't happen in all the varieties of Valencian (I would like to know more about this, since this is one of the features we are more frequently mocked about :P)
- In Lleida, the "pas" emphatics are apparently much more extensively used than in Valencia.
- Valencians are more likely to pronounce forms like "fent-ho" as ["fentu], while Lleidatans would rather say ["fenu].
- The number of vowels in different spoken variants in Valencia range from five to seven. I guess this is more up to the speaker than to anything else, though. In Lleida it is fixed to seven as a general rule.

There may be more, but now that's everything I can think of :)

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Postby elxiquet » 2006-01-16, 22:01

665 wrote:- In Lleida, final a is neutralised to [E] in the 99% of cases :) while this doesn't happen in all the varieties of Valencian (I would like to know more about this, since this is one of the features we are more frequently mocked about :P)


Hehe, no we don't. I say tarara no tararE, i say cara no carE.. :P Here's an example with DCVB:

Cara: Fon.: káɾə (pir-or., or., bal.); káɾɛ (Ll., Maó, Gandesa); káɾa (Andorra, Tortosa, Calasseit, val.); сáɾə (Palma, Manacor)

- Valencians are more likely to pronounce forms like "fent-ho" as ["fentu], while Lleidatans would rather say ["fenu].


Do you say fenu? I mean, "ho" as u? I thought you didn't hehe. We say fento.

DCVB:

Ho: Fon.: la pronúncia d'aquest pronom depèn de la fonètica sintàctica, o sia, de la posició que el mot ocupa dins la frase. 1.o En posició enclítica precedit de forma verbal acabada en consonant o en u (com fer-ho, escolteu-ho), es pronuncia o en els dialectes occidental i valencià, ó en el mallorquí i menorquí, u en l'oriental i eivissenc.—2.o En posició postvocàlica (com canta-ho, ell bé ho diu) es pronuncia w en tots els dialectes.—3.o En posició inicial de frase fonètica (com ho veurem, ho hem vist), es diftonga en heu (əw en or. i bal., ew o aw en occ. i val.).

- The number of vowels in different spoken variants in Valencia range from five to seven. I guess this is more up to the speaker than to anything else, though. In Lleida it is fixed to seven as a general rule.


I still don't differenciate between open and closed o and e. It sounds the same to me! :P

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Postby Guillem » 2006-01-17, 14:32

Oops cagada :P Era ["fento]
Vaig arribar a aquestes estranyes conclusions al xat, parlant amb un noi d'Alacant...
Bé, sempre és interessant discutir temes com la fonètica :D

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Postby elxiquet » 2006-01-17, 23:33

Jo de fonètica poqueta cosa puc dir-te (amb un accent neutral de nou parlant que tinc xD) per això me fixe al DCVB que es com paraula de Deu... :lol:


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