Questions about Catalan

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Saim
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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Saim » 2017-04-29, 10:27

Osias wrote:També vaig llegir l'inici d'aquest llibre i em vaig adonar d'aquests articles, però em vaig pensar que eren d'un registre més formal. Fins que vaig veure "One Piece" en català.


De fet, en català formal són menys comuns que en català col·loquial oriental (les varietats occidentals, per contra, els fan servir entre gens i poc), on són pràcticament obligatoris.

IpseDixit wrote:[flag=]ca[/flag] La persona amb que estic parlant :?:


Preposició + qui o el/la/els/les qual(s) quan es tracta d'una persona.

La persona amb qui / amb la qual estic parlant.
La persona a qui / a la qual vas regalar el llibre.
La persona de qui / de la qual vas parlar.

Preposició + què o el/la/els/les qual(s) quan es tracta d'una cosa.

El bolígraf amb què / amb el qual estic escrivint.
El bolígraf de què / del qual vas parlar.

No n'estic segur, però em sembla que el pronom relatiu el/la/els/les qual(s) seria d'un registre una mica més elevat que les altres construccions.

Tanmateix diria que hi ha força parlants nadius que diuen amb què quan es refereixen a persones o fins i tot el doblement incorrecte amb que. Estem vivint un moment en què el sistema sintàctic de la llengua comença a trontollar bastant per pressió del castellà. :?

IpseDixit

Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-05-04, 7:48

Gràcies Saim :)

IpseDixit

Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-05-18, 13:48

Quan es pronuncia la <o> [u]? Totes les vegades que és àtona o és més complicat que així?

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Saim » 2017-05-18, 15:00

En català central, septentrional, eivissenc i menorquí, sí. (Amb comptades excepcions com cànon).

IpseDixit

Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-05-18, 15:10

Saim wrote:En català central, septentrional, eivissenc i menorquí, sí. (Amb comptades excepcions com cànon).


i de la mateixa manera, les <e> i <a> àtones esdevenen [ə] o [ɐ] (segons els dialectes)?

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Saim » 2017-07-05, 4:31

IpseDixit wrote:
Saim wrote:En català central, septentrional, eivissenc i menorquí, sí. (Amb comptades excepcions com cànon).


i de la mateixa manera, les <e> i <a> àtones esdevenen [ə] o [ɐ] (segons els dialectes)?


Ai perdó, vaig oblidar de respondre't.

En principi sí. Hi ha algunes paraules on la /e/ la manté la majoria dels parlants, però em sembla que podria ser una interferència del castellà. Els exemples que em venen al cap són sobretot les paraules amb -se o -sse, com ara fase, frase o classe. Però hi ha parlants que diuen class[ə], no sé si seria la forma més correcta o si és un hipercatalanisme o què.

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby langmon » 2018-11-10, 11:54

Exceptionally linking to a question outside of this thread:

When to learn Catalan if one already speaks Spanish?
https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=56170#p1123951

Now why do I link to that question here? It is just because today morning, I posted a lot of questions in some specific language subforums, those subforums were something like 15 or 20 even... Then I was told by a moderator that usually there is a generic thread within each of them which could be a better place to ask questions. After knowing that, I deleted most of my (zero-reply) question posts and re-posted them in the generic threads. This one I am linking to right now is one of the very few I didn't delete, I also couldn't even have done so after there already was a reply :).
this is a reboot

Ciarán12

Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-10-04, 5:28

I found a grammar of Catalan online and was looking through it out of interesst, I found this section:

Alguns adjetivos catalães possuem formas irregulares:

Exemplos
bo (bom) millor el millor
mal (ruim) pitjor el pitjor
gran (grande) major* el major**
petit (pequeno) menor*** el menor****

* (**, ***, ****) Embora esta forma seja correta desde o ponto de vista gramatical em catalão, ela não é usada na língua falada ou escrita. Em vez disso, usa-se a forma (el) més gran / (el) més petit


Is this true? I never noticed it before. And if they're not used in either the spoken or written language (the forms menor and major) where are they used?

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Saim » 2019-10-04, 7:27

I think the issue is that major is used much less than Spanish mayor and some people overuse it due to Spanish influence. Here are some examples of usage that is considered correct or incorrect: http://esadir.cat/entrades/fitxa/id/2536 . The DIEC also lists „la major part de ...” as an example sentence.

Here they say that menor is also mostly used in fixed expressions like menor d’edat: https://www.upc.edu/slt/ca/recursos-red ... ents/lexic . Another example in the DIEC is mal menor (lesser evil).

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Ciarán12 » 2019-10-04, 7:48

Saim wrote:I think the issue is that major is used much less than Spanish mayor and some people overuse it due to Spanish influence. Here are some examples of usage that is considered correct or incorrect: http://esadir.cat/entrades/fitxa/id/2536 . The DIEC also lists „la major part de ...” as an example sentence.


Thanks! It seems like Catalan 'major' maps better onto English 'main', 'major' than to 'bigger' in a comparative construction as opposed to Spanish 'mayor' (PT 'maior').

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Antea » 2019-10-04, 19:51

It’s more common to say “el més gran”. :hmm: For me, “el major” it’s like a special title in the police, for example, “ el major dels Mossos d’Esquadra”.

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby linguoboy » 2020-12-03, 19:02

Com es pronuncien els mots emprunts de l'italià terminats en "-el·la" com "caravel·la", "prebel·la", "tarantel·la", etc? Amb e oberta o tancada?
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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Núria Harket » 2020-12-04, 17:53

Hola

Jo les dic amb "e" oberta, espero que sigui el correcte :oops:

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby linguoboy » 2020-12-04, 23:37

Núria Harket wrote:Jo les dic amb "e" oberta, espero que sigui el correcte :oops:

Gràcies, Núria!
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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Saim » 2020-12-05, 7:47

linguoboy wrote:Com es pronuncien els mots emprunts manllevats (/els manlleus) de l'italià terminats en "-el·la" com "caravel·la", "prebel·la", "tarantel·la", etc? Amb e oberta o tancada?


Núria Harket wrote:Hola

Jo les dic amb "e" oberta, espero que sigui el correcte :oops:


En italià les fan amb e oberta. No sé per què no seria correcte en català també.

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-03-03, 17:25

I read the following the the False Friends thread:

linguoboy wrote:(ca) armilla waistcoat
(es) armilla Roman award in the form of a bracelet

The -illa ending in Catalan marks this out as a Castilianism, so it's even odder that the meanings don't line up. The reason is armilla represents a modification of Spanish almilla, a piece of clothing similar to the doublet whose name ("little soul") supposedly derives from it being worn so close to the body.


It made me wonder - if -illa is a Castilianism, what is the native Catalan diminutive ending?
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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby linguoboy » 2021-03-03, 18:14

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:It made me wonder - if -illa is a Castilianism, what is the native Catalan diminutive ending?

As with Spanish, there are several:

The most neutral and productive of these is -et/-eta, which corresponds to Spanish -ito/-ita. When you see Spanish words with the suffix -ete, these are often borrowings from Catalan, e.g. Catalan coet "rocket" > Spanish cohete.

Another productive suffix is /-ona. Interestingly, this is an augmentive suffix in Spanish. So, for instance, a cajón is a large box in Spanish (in Latin America, it can mean "coffin"), whereas a caixó in Catalan is generally a small one.

Most of the others are no longer productive in contemporary speech. These include -ell/-ella, which is cognate to -illo/-illa and, like the Spanish equivalent, often used derivationally, e.g. rosa "rose", rosella "poppy". Almost equally common is -ol/-ola, found for instance in the common Catalan surname Pujol (from puig "mountain"). The Castilian cognate -uelo/-uela is much rarer and often pejorative (e.g. mujeruela "tart").

Others include: -eu/-eua, /-ina, -ic/-ica, -iu/-iua, and -oi/-oia, some of which are quite restricted geographically. And, as with Spanish, many of these can be combined, e.g. caixetí, pobletó.
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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Rí.na.dTeangacha » 2021-03-03, 20:47

Thanks. I had written a longer post rambling about similarities with Portuguese here, but my browser logged me out before I could hit submit and I lost the whole post and now I'm too dejected to try to rewrite it all. :pissed:

Lesson learned: save your damn work before you try submitting any online form.
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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby Núria Harket » 2021-03-04, 18:16

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:Thanks. I had written a longer post rambling about similarities with Portuguese here, but my browser logged me out before I could hit submit and I lost the whole post and now I'm too dejected to try to rewrite it all. :pissed:

Lesson learned: save your damn work before you try submitting any online form.


Quina llàstima! :cry:

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Re: Questions about Catalan

Postby linguoboy » 2021-04-12, 15:31

"Hevea" amb è (com "rea") o amb é?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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