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E}{pugnator
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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-04-04, 18:05

Before introducing the next consonants, i'd like to do a survey:

Which of you know what aspirated consonants are?
Which of you know the difference between voiced/voiceless consonants?

This is important to understand a Georgian feature: ejective consonants.
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Postby Car » 2003-04-04, 19:42

E}{pugnator wrote:Before introducing the next consonants, i'd like to do a survey:

Which of you know what aspirated consonants are?
Which of you know the difference between voiced/voiceless consonants?

This is important to understand a Georgian feature: ejective consonants.


I'm not sure about the aspirated consonants, but I have an idea what it might be, but can't explain it.
Isn't the difference somethink like p-b, t-d?

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Postby leppie » 2003-04-04, 22:22

voiced and unvoiiced is clear to me:
d-t
b-p
s-z (enlgish values)
v-f
and so on...

aspirated / unaspirated: it's the difference between italian and english p,t, and other
(unvoiced) consontant as the t in "to" in english and t in tu (you) in italian, or not?
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby Car » 2003-04-05, 9:35

leppie wrote:aspirated / unaspirated: it's the difference between italian and english p,t, and other
(unvoiced) consontant as the t in "to" in english and t in tu (you) in italian, or not?


That's what I thought, too.

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-04-05, 13:46

Ok, you were almost right, but lemme try to explain it better:

Voiced x Voiceless
Voiced consonants usually have their voiceless equivalent, as leppie has remembered, but not always.

Voiced consonants make the vocal chords vibrate, voiceless don't. Try pronouncing "s" and "z" putting your fingers closeto your throat. You'll notice some vibration in the "z", but not in the "s": z is voiced, but s is voiceless. These two consonants are actually a voiced/voiceless pair, both being articulated the same way, the only difference being this voiced/voiceless thing. Here are some more voiced-voiceless pairs (do the same you did for s and z to check which one is voiced and which is voiceless):

b - p
d - t
v - f
zh - sh
j - ch

m and n are both voiced and don't have voiceless conterparts

Btw, did you know Dutch's g is the voiced conterpart for German's ch as in ach?

Hope you hae understood the voiced/voiceless thing, I'm gonna explain aspirated in another message...

Expug
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Postby leppie » 2003-04-05, 16:12

I know voiced counterpart of german ch, it's arabic 'ghain" غ


Also, I forgot that italian t and english t are different also fot the position of the toungue,
english t's are more palatal...
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby ekalin » 2003-04-05, 18:06

leppie wrote:I know voiced counterpart of german ch


Which "ch"? It represents two sounds in German...

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Postby Luís » 2003-04-05, 18:48

ekalin wrote:Which "ch"? It represents two sounds in German...


[x] - like in Bach

The other sound for German "ch" is [ç] and its voiced counterpart is [ʐ], but it's obvious their not talking about that, since they mentioned Dutch g and... Arabic!
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Postby ekalin » 2003-04-05, 19:10

Luis wrote:
ekalin wrote:Which "ch"? It represents two sounds in German...


[x] - like in Bach

The other sound for German "ch" is [ç] and its voiced counterpart is [ʐ], but it's obvious their not talking about that, since they mentioned Dutch g and... Arabic!


Greek also has the voiced sound. (And the voiceless too, of course.) Not so rare...

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-04-15, 15:01

Sorry, people, I forgot I still have to talk about the aspirated consonants!!!

Well, they are easy...

An aspirated consonant is basically a normal consonant with an extra puff of airfrom your mouth...It's like you were saying an "h" right after the consonant (that's actually the way they are represented at the IPA, with a short h at the upper-right side of the consonant).
American English is plenty of aspirated consonants...

So, if you pronounce t and h at the same voice emanation, you'll get an aspirate consonant.

Tell me if you understood aspirated consonants, and I'll tell you what the ejective are...
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Postby leppie » 2003-04-15, 15:10

HaivhHundhesthuuuudh!
By the way, in calabrese (an group of Italian dialects, and also sicilian is some way)
there's aspiration after almost any plosive consonant.
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby Car » 2003-04-15, 18:24

I understood it, too.

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-04-15, 21:36

So, what ejective consonants are?! They are exactly the opposite!!! Words pronounced with (almost) no air released from your mouth! (I said "almost" because it's impossible that not a single air moleculum leave your mouth when you talk).

An example of what may resemble an ejective consonant is the "ch" at the word "school" in American pronounciation (i guess). Notice that when you say the "ch" it's like if u were speaking to "yourself", to your throat. This is because the "s" already releases too much air, i guess...

Rather than having simple "t" 's or "p" 's, Georgian has these pairs, ejective/aspirated consonants. So, we have an aspirated t (a t plus the small h) and an ejective t, which is represented in the IPA as an apostrophe right after the letter [t']. Ahm and there's still the voiced consonant (they don't have aspirated/ejective oposition). Then we could form a "trio":

th (aspirated) - t' (ejective) d (voiced)

Comments r welcome...
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-04-16, 4:12

I've found what seems to be a good definition:

ejective
Said of sounds (generally unvoiced stops) that are produced in the following way: the airstream is closed in some point (for example, for an ejective /p/, the lips), and the glottis is closed too. Then both closures are released at the same time. An ejective consonant followed by a vowel can be simulated by making a pause between them, and then progressively joining the consonant with the pause. These sounds are also known as egressive glottalics.

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/nyh/lng/glossary.html
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Postby leppie » 2003-04-16, 7:59

I've tried to reproduce them
(you can listen it on
http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/ipa ... fbmp3.html)
The p looks like the sound that's produced when you're "making a fish" (or a least
so happens in Italy)
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Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby ekalin » 2003-04-16, 11:50



After hearing and trying to imitate, I've come to the conclusion that it is easier than it seems. :-)

leppie wrote:The p looks like the sound that's produced when you're "making a fish"


What the * is "making a fish"?

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Postby leppie » 2003-04-16, 12:49

When you inflate (?) your cheeks, and suddenly open your lips, imitating a fiish...
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby ekalin » 2003-04-16, 14:09

leppie wrote:When you inflate (?) your cheeks, and suddenly open your lips, imitating a fiish...


Guess I don't master the technique. I've tried, and it did not sound like an ejective p. Neither like a fish, BTW... :-)

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-04-23, 20:11

As I said above, ejectives are represented with an apostrophe after the letter [t'], and aspirated with an "upperwritten"(? - sobrescrito) "h" [th].

Leppie, from http://www.omniglot.com/writing/georgian2.htm you can find the phonetic symbols (some might be wrong, though). I'd like you to select all ejective consonants (those which are represented with a letter plus an apostrophe) and post here (at the Armazi site you you find a nice explanation about this topic).

By the way, who wants to listen to georgian music? i know at least two websites with songs to be downloaded freely and legally as MP3's:

www.irakli.ru
www.liza.ge

Tell me if you find good ones...
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Postby leppie » 2003-04-23, 21:26

There are 6 of them (i put them in Big size...otherwise they are difficult to read)

k' კ and its name is კანი
t' ტ and its name is ტანი
p' პ and its name is პარი
ʦ' წ and its name is წილი
ʧ' ჭ and its name is ჭარი
q' ყ and its name is ყარი

( კ and პ are very similar...)
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.


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