Learning Notes - Expugnator

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HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-06, 17:50

E}{pugnator wrote:I'm close to finishing Aronson's book. Currently at Lesson 13's exercises and reading passage. If not next week, maybe the other.

So, I'm wondering how should I proceed with the Continuing Course. Have you taken each dialogue as a lesson? I think there's still a lot of vocabulary to work out, even if the hardest expressions are explained in notes. I'm wondering how should I set my schedule and how much I should do each day. How has it worked out for you so far? Did you have to refer back to Aronson on a regular basis?


You're going to overtake me at this rate, it took me about two years to finish Aronson's Reading Grammar, haha.

I've been reading ACC according to time rather than page or chapter count. I do Georgian for three weeks, then Greek for three weeks, then back to Georgian again - I can read one page per day, so that comes out to around 20 pages per 3 week stretch. The dialogues aren't that long, so I always pushed it a few extra pages if needed so I would stop at the beginning of a new dialogue.

I always keep a copy of his Reading Grammar on hand, but I don't use it that much. The charts in the appendices are very useful though.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-09, 12:27

So, I've finished Aronson's and I think I will start ACC today. I've checked the dialogues again and they don't seem beyond my level, even though some are rather long. I'll work through it and then I don't know what I'm gonna do next! Maybe just read grammar references I find important, from top to bottom. I can't work on Tschénkeli or Fähnrich because my German is not good enough and it would take me too long to go through each page. Then maybe I'll stick to the method 1 novel page/1 grammar page continuously.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-11, 18:13

i'm pasting this both here and at the other logs, I think we'll have different inputs (there's a native Georgian there who recently came back) and I want to keep this corner busy!

One example from the continuing course:

დიდი ხანია არ მინახავხართ.
I'm not sure if this is perfect or pluperfect, but it seems to mean "long time no see". The subject is placed as if it were an indirect object market "მი..." and the object is suffixed from the verb არის: ხართ.

I don't totally get this sentence:

ჩემი ბიჭი იწერება, აქ გაჩერება აღარ შემიძლია, თბილისში უნდა დავბრუნდეო. My son wrote me that he couldn't stay there, he had to return to Tbilisi.

ჩემმა ბიჭმა აიჩემა, ლენინგრადში მინდა წასვლაო გავუშვით, რას ვიზამდით. What does "აიჩემა" and "გავუშვით" mean?

კარგი ქენით, რომ გაუშვით, უნდა მიეჩვიოს დამოუკიდებელ ცხოვრებას. Good thing (?) that he moved away (?), you must accept the idea of an independent life.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-11, 21:41

E}{pugnator wrote:there's a native Georgian there who recently came back


Lucky. I wish we had some native speakers over here. :D

E}{pugnator wrote:დიდი ხანია არ მინახავხართ.
I'm not sure if this is perfect or pluperfect, but it seems to mean "long time no see". The subject is placed as if it were an indirect object market "მი..." and the object is suffixed from the verb არის: ხართ.


It's perfect. The pluperfect of class I verbs always uses the same endings as the corresponding aorist, i.e., მენახეთ in this case.

E}{pugnator wrote:I don't totally get this sentence:

ჩემი ბიჭი იწერება, აქ გაჩერება აღარ შემიძლია, თბილისში უნდა დავბრუნდეო. My son wrote me that he couldn't stay there, he had to return to Tbilisi.


"My son writes that [-ო] 'I can no longer stay [verbal noun] here, I must return to Tbilisi.'"

E}{pugnator wrote:ჩემმა ბიჭმა აიჩემა, ლენინგრადში მინდა წასვლაო გავუშვით, რას ვიზამდით. What does "აიჩემა" and "გავუშვით" mean?


ა=ი-ჩემებს insist (on sthg.), keep saying (stubbornly)
გა=უ-შვებს to let s.o. (DAT.) go

It seems to me that there should be some sort of punctuation or a conjunction after წასვლაო. Hmm.

E}{pugnator wrote:კარგი ქენით, რომ გაუშვით, უნდა მიეჩვიოს დამოუკიდებელ ცხოვრებას. Good thing (?) that he moved away (?), you must accept the idea of an independent life.


"You did a good [thing] that you let him go, he must get used to an independent life."

(ქენით is the aorist of the highly irregular verb in Aronson 15.1.1.)

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-15, 17:15

Now for today's doubts:

გალამაზებულხარ, დაქალებულხარ. You got prettier, (???).
ძალიან გიხდება. It fits you well (?)
მე, გენაცვალე, ეხლა აქ ვცხოვრობ, რაიონში. What does გენაცვალე mean in this context?
ძალიან კარგი გიქნია. It sounds very good to you (?)
შევთანხმდეთ, როდის იქნება კარგი დრომ, რომ გამოგიარო. What does გამოგიარო mean?
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-15, 19:01

Dialogues are getting longer, but fortunately that doesn't mean harder. I'm impressed at how much I can get from context and from root-deciphering. i'm currently at the first dialogue strictly speaking (page 9). I've read it up to page 13 and haven't had any unsolved doubts so far. Will leave the rest for tomorrow because I had already read another one today.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-15, 20:40

E}{pugnator wrote:გალამაზებულხარ, დაქალებულხარ. You got prettier, (???).


It's the perfect of და=ქალდება.

E}{pugnator wrote:ძალიან გიხდება. It fits you well (?)


Yes, exactly.

E}{pugnator wrote:მე, გენაცვალე, ეხლა აქ ვცხოვრობ, რაიონში. What does გენაცვალე mean in this context?


It just means "darling" or "friend."

E}{pugnator wrote:ძალიან კარგი გიქნია. It sounds very good to you (?)


გიქნია is perfect of ი-ზამს/ქნ-, i.e., you have done.

E}{pugnator wrote:შევთანხმდეთ, როდის იქნება კარგი დრომ, რომ გამოგიარო. What does გამოგიარო mean?


"that I drop by to see you." It's the optative of გამო+უ-ვლის.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-18, 19:18

Dialogues only get longer. Currently at dialogue 2.

გააჩნია - what does it mean?

შეუძლია სტუდენტს მხოლოდ სტიპენდიაზე იარსებოს, იქირაოს ოთახი, ჭამოს, ჩაიცვას და სხვა ამდაგვარი? I understand the meaning of the sentence, I just want to know which verbal forms are those იარსებოს, იქირაოს? is that the optative itself?

...ფულს თუ მომჭირნედ დახარჯავს - I don't get what მომჭირნედ means.

...როცა სტუდენტი გახდება, იტყვის უნივერსიტეტში შევედი, მიმიღეს, ან ჩამრიცხესო. - I don't understand ჩამრიცხესო and I don't get the whole point of the sentence.

შეიძლება თქვა, უნივერსიტეტში მოვეწყეო? - I don't get მოვეწყეო.

...სხვა საშუალებებმა გასჭრა და ჩაგრიცხეს - What would გასჭრა და ჩაგრიცხეს be?

როგორც კი გაათავებს, მოვახსებენ და მიგიღებთ - I don't get the whole sentence.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-18, 20:00

Now for today's-tomorrow's dialogue:

Right at the title, სტუდქალაქში ბინავდება. I bet ბინავდება has t do with being settled in an apartment.

“აქ ერთი სტუდენტი აპირებდა ბაგებში წასვლას და თუ ჯერ არ წასულა ის გაყვებათ. - I don't get this sentence: "There is a student here planning to go to Bagebi and if he hasn't gone yet, he'll take you there".

როგორ გეკადრებათ - ???

აფსუს! - ???

That was not much, and I manage to finish yday's and read today's dialogue (Dialogue 3). I'm really happy about this book! How have you gotten so far, if I may ask? You see that I just pass through the texts, I don't overlearn them, in the sense that I still don't know almost anything about perfect, pluperfect and participles. I expect to learn them from raw grammar reading or the day I'll be able to read Tschenkéli's book (before that my German will have to get better anyway).

Btw, I'm starting to get worried. The Continuing Course is long, but it will end one day. What's next?! Any other options, even if at the same level, just as a review? I have to finish both the Newspaper Reader and the Continuing Course before I delve into native material, and I only hope I'll be able to tackle the latter, because by that time I'll no longer have notes to explain the hardest expressions =D
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-19, 12:59

გააჩნია - what does it mean?


"It depends on" (present series only)

შეუძლია სტუდენტს მხოლოდ სტიპენდიაზე იარსებოს, იქირაოს ოთახი, ჭამოს, ჩაიცვას და სხვა ამდაგვარი? I understand the meaning of the sentence, I just want to know which verbal forms are those იარსებოს, იქირაოს? is that the optative itself?


Yes, they're optatives from class III verbs არსებობს and ქირაობს.

...ფულს თუ მომჭირნედ დახარჯავს - I don't get what მომჭირნედ means.


Adverbial of მომჭირნე economical.

...როცა სტუდენტი გახდება, იტყვის უნივერსიტეტში შევედი, მიმიღეს, ან ჩამრიცხესო. - I don't understand ჩამრიცხესო and I don't get the whole point of the sentence.


"[...] when someone [he] will become a student, he can [will] say 'I entered the university,' 'they accepted me,' or 'they enrolled me.'"

They're talking about the nuances between the different words for entering a university, but when you become a student, you can say any of these things.

შეიძლება თქვა, უნივერსიტეტში მოვეწყეო? - I don't get მოვეწყეო.


Aorist of მო=ე-წყობა make o's way into, i.e., "can you say 'I made my way into the university'?"

...სხვა საშუალებებმა გასჭრა და ჩაგრიცხეს - What would გასჭრა და ჩაგრიცხეს be?


"[...] other means worked, and they enrolled you."

I don't remember where this sentence is, but the idea is probably that there are different ways of entering a university, and in the past other ways (or "means") also used to work (bribery, connections, etc.).

როგორც კი გაათავებს, მოვახსებენ და მიგიღებთ - I don't get the whole sentence.


It doesn't say მოვახსენებ? ("As soon as he will finish (the meeting), I will report to him, and he will receive you.")

Right at the title, სტუდქალაქში ბინავდება. I bet ბინავდება has t do with being settled in an apartment.

როგორ გეკადრებათ - ???

აფსუს! - ???


"Take up residence," "how do you dare/how can you say that," and "what a pity."

Aren't you using the lexicon in the back of the book? It should have all these words. :)

“აქ ერთი სტუდენტი აპირებდა ბაგებში წასვლას და თუ ჯერ არ წასულა ის გაყვებათ. - I don't get this sentence: "There is a student here planning to go to Bagebi and if he hasn't gone yet, he'll take you there".


If the other student has already left, he won't be able to give John a ride to Bagebi.

How have you gotten so far, if I may ask? You see that I just pass through the texts, I don't overlearn them, in the sense that I still don't know almost anything about perfect, pluperfect and participles.


I'm on page 184, which is the beginning of the section about Mikheil Javakhishvili. I am pretty thorough myself, and I take a lot of notes. I like to take it slow. ;)

Btw, I'm starting to get worried. The Continuing Course is long, but it will end one day. What's next?! Any other options, even if at the same level, just as a review? I have to finish both the Newspaper Reader and the Continuing Course before I delve into native material, and I only hope I'll be able to tackle the latter, because by that time I'll no longer have notes to explain the hardest expressions =D


When I'm done with ACC, I'm going to work my way through some technical books like A Morphosyntactic Analysis (from Dunwoody) and Georgian Syntax by Alice Harris. I'm already using them for reference, but I think it would be nice to go through them cover to cover. After that my plan is to try to read a book by Nodar Dumbadze along an English translation. I quite liked the excerpts of that author in Aronson's Reading Grammar and ACC, so that seems like a good place to start. I don't know if it will be feasible since, as you said, it won't be annotated, but I'll give it a try.

Doesn't look like his books are that easy to dust up though, even Amazon.com only has Sunny Night as a used book, and I'm not sure where to get the original book. Ah well, it'll probably take me another six-nine months to finish ACC, so I have some time to think about it.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-19, 17:31

HoneyBuzzard wrote:Aren't you using the lexicon in the back of the book? It should have all these words. :)


I usually skip those lexicons that have to be browsed manually, you know, I only have ebooks of everything =D I did try it today, and it helped me with a few words.

When I'm done with ACC, I'm going to work my way through some technical books like A Morphosyntactic Analysis (from Dunwoody) and Georgian Syntax by Alice Harris. I'm already using them for reference, but I think it would be nice to go through them cover to cover.


I don't have the one by Dunwoody Press, but I do have the one by Alice Harris. I recently browsed to it and it seems it will be quite useful. As a matter of fact, I started Georgian out of linguistical curiosity and now I'm much more culture/literature centered than linguistically curious. Still, I think reading both a novel and a grammar book simultaneously will help me develop my knowledge.


After that my plan is to try to read a book by Nodar Dumbadze along an English translation.

I have no idea how to get translations, all I have got are the books originally in Georgian. I'll have to face them with the help of a dictionary, native speakers, your help =D That's when I plan to go slowly, no more than one page per day. I have more patience with novels than with textbooks.

Btw, a Georgian recommended me Niko Lordkipanidze, "mere egec waikitxee patara motxrobebi aqvs zaan"

I quite liked the excerpts of that author in Aronson's Reading Grammar and ACC, so that seems like a good place to start. I don't know if it will be feasible since, as you said, it won't be annotated, but I'll give it a try.

Same idea here, I quite liked the excerpts from Dumbadze too. Anyway, don't know if I have mentioned it, but I'm going to start with translations, that is, through comparing Le Petit Prince's
edition in French and in Georgian, the same with Jules Verne's. No notes but translations I can resort to.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-19, 17:35

Btw, forgot about today's doubts, only two!

გადმომაწოდეთ - what exactly is this verb?
როგორ გეკარებდა! როგორ, ხუთ კაპიკს გამოგართმევ? - Don't get those sentences

I'm really glad with my progress overall and thankful for all your help. Georgian is turning out to be a fascinating language and culture altogether.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-21, 0:43

E}{pugnator wrote:I usually skip those lexicons that have to be browsed manually, you know, I only have ebooks of everything =D I did try it today, and it helped me with a few words.


You should see my copy of ACC, if you look at it from the side, the last 1/6th of the pages is darkened because I always have a finger wedged into the last place I looked something up. Some of the pages are even falling out because I'm using the lexicon so much. :D Of course you don't get that problem with ebooks.

E}{pugnator wrote:I have no idea how to get translations, all I have got are the books originally in Georgian. I'll have to face them with the help of a dictionary, native speakers, your help =D That's when I plan to go slowly, no more than one page per day. I have more patience with novels than with textbooks.

Btw, a Georgian recommended me Niko Lordkipanidze, "mere egec waikitxee patara motxrobebi aqvs zaan"


Sounds like a good plan. I'm not familiar with that author, but I hope to find a bookstore online that can ship me books. I've also found some file-sharing websites that have books, but I like to have the physical books.

E}{pugnator wrote:Btw, forgot about today's doubts, only two!

გადმომაწოდეთ - what exactly is this verb?


Aorist (probably as imperative) of გადმო=ა-წოდებს pass over to someone.

E}{pugnator wrote:როგორ გეკარებდა! როგორ, ხუთ კაპიკს გამოგართმევ? - Don't get those sentences


"How do you dare [to pay for me]?! How will [can] I let you pay five kopecks for me?"

(This is page 31, right? It says "გეკადრება" in my copy)

I'm really glad with my progress overall and thankful for all your help. Georgian is turning out to be a fascinating language and culture altogether.


Definitely, it's a very different language and cultural history from what I've studied before. I'm glad we can get some action in this forum. :)

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-23, 17:59

Here we go again. Yesterday I read six pages and had now doubts. Now only this verb that kep showing up.

გაგიხვევენ (as in სპეციალურ სქელ ქაღალდში გაგიხვევენ)

უნდა...სქელ საფოსტო ქაღადში გაახვიო - is გაახვი the same verb as above?

Needless to say that I found the dialogue about the postal system really boring. It's the type of subject Kiziria didn't cover at her newest Beginner's Georgian (this one does deserve a sequel, with the same approach, only more lessons, but she's rather preparing a book on verbs).

I really hope that all this exposure to the written language will allow me to write stuff myself, but I still think some verbal tenses won't come up naturally.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-23, 23:43

E}{pugnator wrote:გაგიხვევენ (as in სპეციალურ სქელ ქაღალდში გაგიხვევენ)

უნდა...სქელ საფოსტო ქაღადში გაახვიო - is გაახვი the same verb as above?


The first is relative გა=უ-ხვევს wrap something for someone (indirect object), and the second is absolute გა=ა-ხვევს wrap something.

E}{pugnator wrote:Needless to say that I found the dialogue about the postal system really boring.


Yeah, I guess they were trying to be pragmatic. :lol:

It's the type of subject Kiziria didn't cover at her newest Beginner's Georgian (this one does deserve a sequel, with the same approach, only more lessons, but she's rather preparing a book on verbs).


She's writing a book on verbs now? I hadn't heard that. Where did you hear it?

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-24, 18:01

HoneyBuzzard wrote:She's writing a book on verbs now? I hadn't heard that. Where did you hear it?


A friend from another community wrote her asking for a sequel to Beginner's Georgian, and she replied that she's preparing a book specifically on verbs. I hope it's somehow didactic and not just a collection of charts, because for this the one you have already suffices. Anyway, only 10 lessons left for the Newspaper Reader, which means that in November I'll be able to start reading another grammar in depth (unless I decide to go for some textbooks in Russian with audio).
=======================

Today's doubts:

A) What does "რა გაწუღებთ?" mean?
B) სულ მახველებდა - ???
C) სიამოვნებით მივირბენ აფთიაქში - what does მივირბენ mean?
D) გახველებთ? - ???
E) გაციებულხართ - ???
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-24, 23:05

Cool, I'll look forward to reading it then.

E}{pugnator wrote:A) What does "რა გაწუღებთ?" mean?


With a ღ? I'm thinking this is from შე=ა-წუხებს something troubles someone [direct object]

Btw, note how the -თ is hiding the third person subject marker -ს.

E}{pugnator wrote:B) სულ მახველებდა - ???


"I kept (სულ) coughing" The indirect object is the one that coughs, and there is no subject, so the verb always shows a third person singular subject.

E}{pugnator wrote:C) სიამოვნებით მივირბენ აფთიაქში - what does მივირბენ mean?


"I will run"

E}{pugnator wrote:D) გახველებთ? - ???


"Are you coughing?" This is the same verb as two sentences up. The -თ is hiding the -ს again.

E}{pugnator wrote:E) გაციებულხართ - ???


"You have caught a cold" - Perfect of გა=ცივდება.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-25, 18:14

Now for today's doubts. It was the longest dialogue so far, I'm glad I'm moving on.

A) სხვა დროს თუ დაგჭირდა, მაშინ გამოგართმევ. If you need it one more time, then ??????

B) წიგნების მაღაზიაში მინდა შევიარო და თანაც ვივახშმებ სადმე. What do შევიარო and ვივახშმებ mean?

C) თეატრში აღარ გამოგიშვებენ, გაგიმართავენ ქეიფს. What about გამოგიშვებენ and გაგიმართავენ?

D) ჯაჭვითაც რომ დამაბან, მაინც გამოვიქცევი. - (I don't get this whole sentence.)

E) ანტრაქტი რომ იქნება, მაშინ დავათვლაიეროთ - დავათვლაიეროთ = ?????

F) დადგვაგვიანდება და პარტერში აღარ შეგვიშვებენ. - შეგვიშვებენ ????

G) I don't get this sentence from Rustaveli: "ლეკვი ლომისა სწორია, ძუ იყოს, თუნდა ხვადია."

A lot of doubts, as you see, my doubts are usually about perfect and pluperfect forms.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-25, 22:24

E}{pugnator wrote:A) სხვა დროს თუ დაგჭირდა, მაშინ გამოგართმევ. If you need it one more time, then ??????


"I will pay it for you"

E}{pugnator wrote:B) წიგნების მაღაზიაში მინდა შევიარო და თანაც ვივახშმებ სადმე. What do შევიარო and ვივახშმებ mean?


"that I drop in" and "I will have dinner"

E}{pugnator wrote:C) თეატრში აღარ გამოგიშვებენ, გაგიმართავენ ქეიფს. What about გამოგიშვებენ and გაგიმართავენ?


"they will let you go" and "they will prepare it for you"

E}{pugnator wrote:D) ჯაჭვითაც რომ დამაბან, მაინც გამოვიქცევი. - (I don't get this whole sentence.)


"if you bind me with chains too, I will still run (away)"

(I assume it says "დამაბა")

E}{pugnator wrote:E) ანტრაქტი რომ იქნება, მაშინ დავათვლაიეროთ - დავათვლაიეროთ = ?????


"let's look around" (opt. of და=ა-თვალიერებს)

E}{pugnator wrote:F) დადგვაგვიანდება და პარტერში აღარ შეგვიშვებენ. - შეგვიშვებენ ????


"they will let us in"

E}{pugnator wrote:G) I don't get this sentence from Rustaveli: "ლეკვი ლომისა სწორია, ძუ იყოს, თუნდა ხვადია."


"The cub of a lion is equal, be it female or whether it is male." It gets translated more fluently on page 270 as "The lion's whelps are equal, be they male or female."

The genitive ლომის is postponed, so it gets the extended case ending.

E}{pugnator wrote:A lot of doubts, as you see, my doubts are usually about perfect and pluperfect forms.


Keep it up, you'll get used to them. :)

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-26, 17:44

Today I had to think about complicated forms like "I haven't been asked about that" (perfect? pluperfect?) and "I have some books to recommend" (future participle). I only thought about, because I don't have the slightest idea of how to actually produce them :lol:

Anyway, let's continue with the continuing one =D :

A) ნუ სწუხარ - ???
B) რაც თქვენ გესაჭიროებათ - which tense/form is that for 'need'?
C) არ მინდა ლექცია გავაცდინო. - what is გავაცდინო ?
D) ...დარბაზში მიეშურება - What is მიეშურება ?

You know, I can figure out most from the context, but I like to know exactly which verb is which. Only when I paste the whole sentence and ask for its meanings is when I haven't got enough context.
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