Learning Notes - Expugnator

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HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-30, 23:05

E}{pugnator wrote:Today I came across:

წიგნთსაცავში ვარ წასასვლელი. I have to go to the library.

I always though about წიგნთსაცავში უნდა წავიდე. Any differences in usage?


I don't know. Hmm, უნდა can also be used to express "should" (შენ საუბრის საგანი უნდა შეცვალო "you should change the subject"), "must" (ყველამ ბევრი უნდა დალიოს "everyone must drink a lot"), inference (შენთვის უნდა ეპასუხნა, როცა შინ არ ვიყავი "he must have answered you when I was not there"), etc., so maybe be+future participle only expresses obligation.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-09-03, 20:45

Today I finished lesson 18 at Hewitt's book. Only two to go! Most likely to be finished next week, since lesson 20 actually has twice as much conversation. I also got hold of two other books in Russian, with audio. One of them seems to be designed for children but is rather comprehensive. Anyway, I think I won't change my plans: will take Newspaper Reader after finishing Nikolaishvili, and Aronson right after Hewitt. I think whatever Aronson wrote will be easier to follow now that I've been through Hewitt's book, even though I overlooked several passages.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-09-05, 18:43

What does 'sul erTi' means? As in:

kai Hani kremlisTvis sul erTi iqo ara mHolod ruseTis aramed sHva mokavSire respublikebis umCiresobebis bedi — sul erTi ar unda qoPiliqo, eHla XvenTvisaC ar unda iqos sul erTi — piriKiT.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-09-06, 7:35

E}{pugnator wrote:What does 'sul erTi' means? As in:

kai Hani kremlisTvis sul erTi iqo ara mHolod ruseTis aramed sHva mokavSire respublikebis umCiresobebis bedi — sul erTi ar unda qoPiliqo, eHla XvenTvisaC ar unda iqos sul erTi — piriKiT.


It means "all the same."

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-09-12, 17:35

I posted this at the other forum but I thought I should share it with you, HoneyBuzzard. It's the first excerpt from the Newspaper Reader:

Finally I could start the Georgian Newspaper Reader. I hope I'm going to learn a lot from it, specially when it comes to decyphering the often unusual word order at the news. Let's examine the first story, there's a lot to learn:

რამდენიმე დღის წინათ საქართველოს ამერიკელი სტუმარი ეწვია, გენერალი ოთარ შალიკაშვილი. ისევე როგორც მისი ძმის გენერალი ჯონ შალიკაშვილი ჩამობრძანებამ, ბატონი ოთარის ჩამოსვლამაც მაშინვე მიიპყრო საინფორმაციო საშუალებების და საზოგადოებრიობის ყურადღება.

An attempt to translate word-by-word:

Several days ago to-Georgia American guest visited, general Otar Shalikashvili. Just the same as his brother's general John Shalikashvili, Mr. Otar's arrival immediately-also attracted information means' and public's attention.

Translation posted at the book (thank you authors):
Several days ago General Otar Shalikashvili, an American guest, visited Georgia. The arrival of Mr. Otar Shalikashvili, just as the arrival of his brother, General John Shalikashvili, immediately attracted the attention of the news media and the public.

Some remarks:

1. If the verb ეწვია is in the aorist, why is the subject ამერიკელი სტუმარი in the nominative? I assume საქართველოს is an indirect object, hence the -ს.
2. Notice the "germanophile" word order, with indirect object coming first and verb at the end of the period.
3. Notice how "ჩამობრძანებამ" and "ჩამოსვლამაც" both carry the ergative ending, no matter if one is first introduce and the other is later mentioned followed "just as": they both are treated as subjects of the verb "attracted" by the case system.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-09-13, 0:22

Thanks, I appreciate seeing some excerpts. It gives a nice feel for what the book is like. :)

E}{pugnator wrote:1. If the verb ეწვია is in the aorist, why is the subject ამერიკელი სტუმარი in the nominative? I assume საქართველოს is an indirect object, hence the -ს.


Yes, exactly, it's an intransitive verb (class II), and the place visited is the indirect object.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-09-14, 18:50

I just (re)started Aronson's grammar. Will be going a bit faster for the first 4 lessons but then I'll slow down and avoid moving on before I've figured out one topic.

I read that you may form verbal nouns both preverbful (future) and preverbless (present), the difference being in aspect as well. I wonder which one is usually preferred in overall, genericval statements? Are Georgians really picky about such distinctions? I would tend to use the present one much more often from what I can imagine.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-09-17, 21:37

E}{pugnator wrote:I just (re)started Aronson's grammar. Will be going a bit faster for the first 4 lessons but then I'll slow down and avoid moving on before I've figured out one topic.

I read that you may form verbal nouns both preverbful (future) and preverbless (present), the difference being in aspect as well. I wonder which one is usually preferred in overall, genericval statements? Are Georgians really picky about such distinctions? I would tend to use the present one much more often from what I can imagine.


I don't remember reading anything about preverbs on verbal nouns. Where did you read it? I assumed it was a derivation-thing only.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-09-18, 10:15

It's at Aronson's lesson 2, page 48 and note #6, page 50.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-09-18, 19:23

E}{pugnator wrote:It's at Aronson's lesson 2, page 48 and note #6, page 50.


Oh yeah, there it is. I can see how that would apply to something like ხვალ დავიწყებთ ჩვენი მოთხრობის წერას. Tomorrow we will begin the writing of our story.

I wonder if that means you would say ხვალ ვისწავლით მოთხრობის დაწერას. Tomorrow we will study the writing of the story. (i.e., prefixed because the writing of the story is already complete)

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-09-20, 17:46

HoneyBuzzard,, do you write down the answers to Aronson's exercises when you translate into Georgian? I've always been doing that, but I've started to wonder if it does help to write down in a script I can't write by hand properly, not to mention the time lost in the process.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-09-20, 23:54

E}{pugnator wrote:HoneyBuzzard,, do you write down the answers to Aronson's exercises when you translate into Georgian? I've always been doing that, but I've started to wonder if it does help to write down in a script I can't write by hand properly, not to mention the time lost in the process.


For the first seven chapters I just did it in my head, but for chapters eight and forward I would copy the Georgian sentences into a text editor, write in parsing codes, translate them and then compare my answers to the key. Like so:

46. შვილო (child-VOC), ვინ (who-ERG) დაგბანა (he-washed-you-aor-1)? მამამ (father-ERG) დამბანა (he-washed-me-aor-1). დას (sister-DAT) ხომ (INT PART isn't it?) არ (ADV not) დაუბანიხარ (he-has washed-you-1perf-1)? არა (ADV not), მას (she-DAT) არ (ADV not) დავუბანივარ (she-has washed-me-1perf-1).

Child, who washed you? Father washed me. Sister hasn't washed you, has she? No, she has not washed me.

Key: Child, who washed you? Father washed me. Didn't sister wash you? No, she didn't wash me.


It doesn't have anything to do with the script though, this is more a way of getting used to parsing Georgian. It can particularly help with the more complex sentences like in the reading sections. I haven't been doing it in ACC though, it has way more text.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-09-21, 17:07

At the bottom of page 144 of Aronson's, there is a pair of sentences where you can contrast imperfective X perfective usage of the verbal noun.

I'm really enjoying Aronson's book now. Everything starts to make sense and I don't feel I'm having too much because I've had a previous introduction. His tips before introducing the first reading text were superb!
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-09-22, 20:29

E}{pugnator wrote:At the bottom of page 144 of Aronson's, there is a pair of sentences where you can contrast imperfective X perfective usage of the verbal noun.


Thanks, that's a pretty good example.

E}{pugnator wrote:I'm really enjoying Aronson's book now. Everything starts to make sense and I don't feel I'm having too much because I've had a previous introduction. His tips before introducing the first reading text were superb!


Wow, you're that far already? I think it took me three-four months to get to the first reading section :lol:

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-09-24, 12:41

HoneyBuzzard wrote:
E}{pugnator wrote:I'm really enjoying Aronson's book now. Everything starts to make sense and I don't feel I'm having too much because I've had a previous introduction. His tips before introducing the first reading text were superb!


Wow, you're that far already? I think it took me three-four months to get to the first reading section :lol:


It took me nine months :P I've studied 6 other books before trying this one again :lol:
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-09-28, 17:38

I'm having a nice time with Aronson's lessons, even the reading passages aren't that tiresome.

I was just wondering and I might have missed: what does ე.ი. mean?
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-09-28, 20:34

Yeah, some of the reading sections are very interesting. :)

ე.ი. means ესე იგი "i.e." (it's part of the chapter six vocabulary)

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-01, 18:16

I'm having a hard time trying to make sense of Aronson's lesson 11. I've been introduced to so many verbal forms - participles, causatives! I have no idea when to use each of them, so that makes any attempt to memorize very vague.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-03, 0:19

E}{pugnator wrote:I'm having a hard time trying to make sense of Aronson's lesson 11. I've been introduced to so many verbal forms - participles, causatives! I have no idea when to use each of them, so that makes any attempt to memorize very vague.


I'm focusing on reading and passive understanding of Georgian, so it's probably different if you want to speak or write it, but I'd say just memorize the table on page 311 and don't worry too much about the rules for which specific circumfixes to use with which types of roots. As long as you can recognize what kind of participial stem you're looking at, it should be sufficient - plus with reading experience you get used to these patterns like -ილ with class I stem formant -ი, მ- -არ for class II root verbs, etc.

The important thing to take away from chapter 11 is really the perfect series of class II verbs - they're common, at least in the literary language, and certainly much more so than causatives formed from class I verbs.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-10-05, 17:39

I'm close to finishing Aronson's book. Currently at Lesson 13's exercises and reading passage. If not next week, maybe the other.

So, I'm wondering how should I proceed with the Continuing Course. Have you taken each dialogue as a lesson? I think there's still a lot of vocabulary to work out, even if the hardest expressions are explained in notes. I'm wondering how should I set my schedule and how much I should do each day. How has it worked out for you so far? Did you have to refer back to Aronson on a regular basis?
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