Learning Notes - Expugnator

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-13, 1:06

It is indeed Paata's sentence, at least according to the book. I copyed and pasted it, but I checked it again to confirm. Now I could make more sense of the actual dialogue, you know, it's not that easy when all you get are isolate words and verbal forms not directly corresponding to the ones used in the text. Maybe I should write one more review at Amazon requesting that in upcoming editions translations are printed or at least available online? ;)

I do have A Continuing Course, but I have to wait a bit so I can profit from it. I'm actually relieved that it is a natural sequel as an intermediate textbook.

Now after this dialogue I'll read a bit more on grammar, this time it's gonna be more interesting because there are several verbs I feel i'm actually going to use.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-13, 21:39

Today's dialogue was much easier to understand, it made more sense.

The host (maspinj[e]li) at a hotel chats with some guests at breakfast:

maspinjeli: dila mSvidobisaT! rogor gejinaT? Hom kargad?
stumari: guSin jalian daviGaleT, da, rogorC ki davdeT Tavi baliSze, maSinve daGliloba vigrjeniT da uCbad Xagvejina. gamogveGvija mHolod roCa meore oTaHidan Hma mogvesma.
maspinjeli: ras miirTmevT sauzmisTvis?
stumari: jalian mogvecona guSindeli sauzme. Tu Seijleba, igive mogvitaneT.
maspinjeli: rogorC gnebavT.
stumari: ra mSvenier sastumros cavacqdiT. rogor miHaria, roCa maspinjeli cesierad da ase gulTbilad gvemsaHureba. ai, ukve moaKvs Xveni sauzme.
maspinjeli: miirTviT, sanam CHelia.
stumari: nu geSiniaT, madianad SeveKCeviT! sHvaTa Soris, Segvijlia Tu ara aK davrXeT kviris bolomde?
maspinjeli: darXiT ramden HansaC moindomebT. roCa zustad geCodinebaT, ubralod SematqobineT, Tu Seijleba.
stumari: Hom gaHsovT – giTHariT, ro(m) uSgulSi gvinda avideT. amboben, ro(m) svaneTSi ar Segijlia imgzavro, ise ro(m) ar inaHulo uSguli. iK sad Segvijlia davrXeT?
maspinjeli: vaime, ramdenadaC me viCi, uSguls ara aKvs sastumro. iK Tu ar(a) gqavT naCnobi, ras izamT?
stumari: ra gaecqoba, Tu viSoveT sadme adgili, keTili; Tu ara da, Sin gavudgebiT gzas raxis gavliT.

- Good morning! How did you sleep, well?
- Yesterday I was very tired, and as soon as I laid my head on the pillow I immediately fell asleep, I only woke up when I heard a noise coming from the room #2.
- What are you taking for breakfast?
- I really liked yesterday's breakfast. I'd like to have the same, if possible.
- As you wish.
- How beautiful it is in front of the hotel. I'm so happy when a host serves me so properly and warm-heartedly. Look, you alredy brought us the breakfast. (???)
- Enjoy it while it's still hot.
- Don't worry, I'll tuck into it with appetite. By the way, would I be able to stay here until the end of the week?
- Stay as much time as you want. When you know exactly, just inform me, if possible.
- Do you remember - I told you I'd like to go up to Ushguli. They say it's not possible to travel to Svanetia and not see Ushguli (???). Where would I be able to stay over there?
- Look, as far as I know there is no hotel in Ushguli. If you don't have an acquaintance there, what will you do?
- What else is there for it? If I find somewhere to stay soon, good. If not, I'll set out on the road back home via Rach'a.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-13, 23:01

E}{pugnator wrote:It is indeed Paata's sentence, at least according to the book. I copyed and pasted it, but I checked it again to confirm.


Hmm, seems like it would more sense for that to be Nodar's sentence. I guess he's saying Nodar shouldn't be ashamed if he feels cold.

I do have A Continuing Course, but I have to wait a bit so I can profit from it. I'm actually relieved that it is a natural sequel as an intermediate textbook.


That's a really nice thing about Aronson's reading grammar - it has a sequel, so once you've finished reading the first one, you can pick up where you left off. It's my impression the book was mostly written by Dodona Kiziria though, its style is very different from the first book.

E}{pugnator wrote:ai, ukve moaKvs Xveni sauzme.
Look, you alredy brought us the breakfast. (???)


Look, he (=probably the waiter) is already bringing our breakfast.

E}{pugnator wrote:amboben, ro(m) svaneTSi ar Segijlia imgzavro, ise ro(m) ar inaHulo uSguli.
They say it's not possible to travel to Svanetia and not see Ushguli (???).


They say that you cannot go to Svaneti if (რომ) you so do not visit Ushguli.

I would have expected to see an -ო of reported speech at the end of that.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-14, 17:25

HoneyBuzzard, are you familiar with the Georgian Newspaper Reader? I believe it will be my next book once I'm done with the Intensive Course by Nikolaishvili. It consists of small news items, mostly regarding politics, They come with both translation and glossary plus audio, so I believe they'll help me consolidate a lot of grammar and work on real news later.

I came across this one sentence at Nikolaishvili's:

სასტუმრო იქიდან ძალიან ახლოსაა.

I don't get why the -სა and not just ახლოა. Is it the extended genitive? I wonder why it is used there?
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-14, 17:38

What are these forms?

მე ვწერივარ
შენ წერიხარ
ის წერია
ჩვენ ვწერივართ
თქვენ წერიხართ
ისინი წერიან
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-14, 23:02

E}{pugnator wrote:HoneyBuzzard, are you familiar with the Georgian Newspaper Reader? I believe it will be my next book once I'm done with the Intensive Course by Nikolaishvili. It consists of small news items, mostly regarding politics, They come with both translation and glossary plus audio, so I believe they'll help me consolidate a lot of grammar and work on real news later.


I think it looks good. I've thought about buying it, but I already have several books lined up, so my plate is full. If you buy it, I'd like to hear how it is.

E}{pugnator wrote:სასტუმრო იქიდან ძალიან ახლოსაა.

I don't get why the -სა and not just ახლოა. Is it the extended genitive? I wonder why it is used there?


ახლოს is an adverb here. I'm not sure what, if any, the change in meaning would be if you said "ახლოა" - I think it would imply that being near is a characteristic of the hotel, i.e., "the hotel exists nearby" vs. "it is a nearby hotel."

E}{pugnator wrote:What are these forms?

მე ვწერივარ
შენ წერიხარ
ის წერია
ჩვენ ვწერივართ
თქვენ წერიხართ
ისინი წერიან


It's the present of the stative verb (ს)წერია it is written/registered, e.g., ვწერივარ "I am registered."

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-15, 0:21

Oh right, ახლოს is a different word, I keep forgetting this.

I already have the book, and it's really nice. Maybe the initial lessons are beneath your level, but it's quite useful in that it contains detailed glossaries for each text also with description of verbal forms, followed by an accurate textual translation at another section of the book.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-16, 19:50

1) What does შვრებოდი mean?

As in როცა ახალგაზრდა იყავი, რას შვრებოდი ჩვეულებრივი დღის განმავლობაში?

2) How about this sentence:
საძილეში სწრაფად ვიცვამდი, რადგან იქ არასოდეს გვენთო ცეცხლი, და ხელ-პირს ვიბანდი.

3) What about the verbal form ერჩებოდი?
კვირაობით ლოგინში ერჩებოდი სადილის დრომდე.

4) what does გადაირეოდით mean? As in:
ხომ არ გინდათ მე დავიჯერო, რომ თქვენ მართლა გადაირეოდით, აქ რო მუშაობდეთ?

5) ამიტომ ვერასოდეს შევეგუებოდი აქ მუშაობს. (??)
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-17, 21:08

I already have the book, and it's really nice. Maybe the initial lessons are beneath your level, but it's quite useful in that it contains detailed glossaries for each text also with description of verbal forms, followed by an accurate textual translation at another section of the book.


Well, I don't know about that, I think I could still use the practice. ;)

1) What does შვრებოდი mean?

As in როცა ახალგაზრდა იყავი, რას შვრებოდი ჩვეულებრივი დღის განმავლობაში?


It's the imperfect of შვრება. "When you were young, what were you doing in the course of an ordinary day?"

საძილეში სწრაფად ვიცვამდი, რადგან იქ არასოდეს გვენთო ცეცხლი, და ხელ-პირს ვიბანდი.


"I was getting dressed quickly in [my] bedroom because our light was never lit there, and I was washing my hands and face."

კვირაობით ლოგინში ერჩებოდი სადილის დრომდე.


Are you sure it says "ერჩებოდი"? It doesn't appear to be a possible form.

4) what does გადაირეოდით mean? As in:
ხომ არ გინდათ მე დავიჯერო, რომ თქვენ მართლა გადაირეოდით, აქ რო მუშაობდეთ?


It means "you would go crazy." The root is რევ, and the ვ is eliding because of the ო in the ending (conditional screeve).

5) ამიტომ ვერასოდეს შევეგუებოდი აქ მუშაობს. (??)


Hmm, it isn't მუშაობს? Then it would be "for this reason I could never get used to working here."

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-17, 23:51

HoneyBuzzard wrote:
კვირაობით ლოგინში ერჩებოდი სადილის დრომდე.


Are you sure it says "ერჩებოდი"? It doesn't appear to be a possible form.

5) ამიტომ ვერასოდეს შევეგუებოდი აქ მუშაობს. (??)


Hmm, it isn't მუშაობს? Then it would be "for this reason I could never get used to working here."


Copy/pasting from the book:

kviraobiT loginSi vrXebodi sadilis dromde, Holosadilis Semdeg bevr sasiamovno saaTs vatarebdi Xems saTburSi, sadaC izrdeboda Xemi mCenareebi.

amitom verasodes (ver) Seveguebodi aK muSaobas.

So it's actually ვრჩებოდი :lol: and მუშაობას, you're right.

I'm very anxious about moving on to the next books (newspaper reader and probably Aronson), even though the past days have been of quite effective learning - you see I haven't asked much about those texts from chapter 14 and I'm already done with two other texts and the exercises from this chapter, so now it's only six chapters left.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-20, 18:32

Lesson 15 is about the perfect. It seems a bit confusing, as it is supposed to be used for talking about past events you're not sure how they happened. I can't access my favorite site now to check, and I wonder how this usage works itself out. I thought it were a plusquamperfect tense (that is, a past event prior to another past event), but it doesn't seem so.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-20, 21:43

E}{pugnator wrote:Lesson 15 is about the perfect. It seems a bit confusing, as it is supposed to be used for talking about past events you're not sure how they happened. I can't access my favorite site now to check, and I wonder how this usage works itself out. I thought it were a plusquamperfect tense (that is, a past event prior to another past event), but it doesn't seem so.


Aronson says the use of the perfect is difficult to pin down, and that it mostly competes with the aorist as a non-personal alternative. From what I've seen, there are basically three uses of the perfect: 1. A classical perfect - this is like the perfect in a language like classical Greek and indicates the continued relevance of a completed action. 2. An evidential stative - this is usually translated as has apparently whether or not თუემრ occurs in the sentence, and indicates that the speaker didn't personally witness the action but is inferring it. 3. A neutral past tense - the aorist can imply personal investment, and in contrast the perfect does not.

Try reading section 10.1.3.1 (pages 274 and 276) in Aronson's book. I know you're not following that book, but that section is all about how to use the perfect, and it has examples.

There's also a second perfect (or pluferfect), but it's more of a past optative than a real pluperfect. Just ignore that for now if your book hasn't talked about it.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-20, 21:52

HoneyBuzzard wrote:There's also a second perfect (or pluferfect), but it's more of a past optative than a real pluperfect. Just ignore that for now if your book hasn't talked about it.


I've read about it briefly at Armazi. So, if the pluperfect works like the true past subjunctive in Modern Georgian, then which tense or periphrase does the pluperfect job? Like, "When I woke up, mom had already cooked bread".
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-21, 19:00

E}{pugnator wrote:
HoneyBuzzard wrote:There's also a second perfect (or pluferfect), but it's more of a past optative than a real pluperfect. Just ignore that for now if your book hasn't talked about it.


I've read about it briefly at Armazi. So, if the pluperfect works like the true past subjunctive in Modern Georgian, then which tense or periphrase does the pluperfect job? Like, "When I woke up, mom had already cooked bread".


Well, Georgian originally had three screeves in the third series: the perfect, the pluperfect and the conjunctive perfect. The perfect and the pluperfect were what you would expect - i.e., like in other languages - and the conjunctive perfect was a past subjunctive. With time the conjunctive perfect almost entirely disappeared from the language (it is now only seen in toasts, fixed expressions, maybe poetry too though I haven't read that much), and the pluperfect took over its function, i.e., the pluperfect didn't stop being a pluperfect, it just took over the function of the conjunctive perfect as it fell out of use. Now the perfect and aorist have started taking over the original function of the pluperfect thus pushing what was originally the pluperfect entirely into the role of the now mostly dead conjunctive perfect. So really you could use the aorist, perfect or pluperfect in that sentence. I don't have any native feel for Georgian, but I'm guessing the use of the pluperfect would sound formal, and the aorist or perfect would sound colloquial.

Here's an example of an true pluperfect (treating the perfect as a past tense, example from Aronson):

პეტრესათვის თქვენი ოქროს საათი არ მიგიყიდიათ (perf.)? არა, ვინაიდან მას საათი უკვე ეყიდა (plup.), მისთვის არ მიმიყიდია (perf.).
"Haven't you sold your gold watch to Peter? No, because he had already bought a watch, I haven't sold it to him."

Wait, I found one with an aorist ;):
მათ ცნობები უკვე მიეღოთ (plup.), როცა მათ წერილი გაეგზავნა (aor.).
"They had already received the information when the letter was sent to them."

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-23, 19:31

What does this sentence mean accurately?

„ნუ გეშინიათ! ეს საქართველოა, სადაც არავინ არაფერს არ ასწრებს დროზე“.
__________________________________

Now the dialogue:

An impertinent child and his exasperated mother have an argument

deda: cuHel ro(m) ise didHans ar geTamaSa da uPro adre dagejina, eHla ase daGlili ar iKnebodi, Svilo. bebiam ra girXiaT SarSan Sen da Sens das? – girXiaT ro(m) qvelaPeri droze dagecqoT da droze dagemTavrebinaT.
Svili: Sen Tu cuHel iCodi Tavs rogor vigrjnobdi dGes, dediko, droze unda geTKva XvenTvis agvelagebina saTamaSoebi. erTi saaTiT adre ro(m) gagegzavna saHlSi Xemi aHali megobari,
uPro adre davcvebodi da dGes gaviGvijebdi sul gamojinebuli.
deda: maS, qvelaPeri kidev Xemi bralia, Hom?! mama-Sens ro(m) eCema SenTvis roCa bolo dros egre kadnierad melaparake, albaT egre Cudad aGar moiKCeodi! arasodes ar unda gagveqida
Xveni saHli soPelSi. moulodnelad mogveCa Sesajlebloba gveqida es bina KalaKSi, da viqideT ise ro(m) araPeri gagvigia es raioni Cudia Tu kargi. me mSvenivrad mainC viCodi, ro(m) KalaKeli bixebi mavne gavlenas moaHdendnen Senze da ai marTla moaHdines!
Svili: soPelSi ro(m) sikvdilamde gveCHovra, albaT iKaC iseve gavizrdebodi, rogorC vizrdebi aK. sHvaTa Soris, gareT ar unda dagetovebina Xemi velosipedi – gana ar iCi, ro(m) Seijleba Zangi moekidos?
deda: sul erTia XemTvis, daiZangeba Tu ara. Seni velosipedi ki ara, Sen unda mimeqrdeni Heze da mTeli Game iK dametovebine! Tu ar Segijlia cesierad melaparako, nu melaparakebi. cadi Sens oTaHSi da nuGar gamoHval! morXa da gaTavda!

- If you hadn't played for so long and had gone to bed earlier last night, now you wouldn't be so tired, child. Haven't your grandmother told you and your sister last year? She told you to start everything on time and you'd end it on time.
- If you knew last night how I'd feel today, mom, you would have told us to clear up the game on time. Had you sent my new friend back home one hour earlier, I'd have gone to sleep earlier and I'd wake up today totally refresged by sleep.
- So, everything is my fault again, then? If your father went down on you (??) last time you talked to me so insolently, maybe you wouldn't act so badly anymore. He would never have sold (??) our house in the village. We were given unexpectedly the opportunity to buy this appartment in town, and we bought iwhat we could find at this area, bad or good (??). I knew so well that town children would exercise harmful influence on you and they really are!
- If we lived in the village till death, maybe I'd grow up there the same way I did here. By the way, you shouldn't keep my bycicle outside - don't you know that it may rust?
- It's all your business that it will rust (??). You should place your bycicle at the trees and leave it the whole night (??). If you can't talk decently to me, don't talk to me. Go to your room and do not come back! That's the end of it!
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-24, 0:19

What does this sentence mean accurately?

„ნუ გეშინიათ! ეს საქართველოა, სადაც არავინ არაფერს არ ასწრებს დროზე“.


Accurately? It means "don't be afraid! This is Georgia where nobody finishes/accomplishes anything on time." Of course literally it's "where nobody doesn't accomplish nothing on time." They really like their redundant negatives :lol:.

mama-Sens ro(m) eCema SenTvis
If your father went down on you (??)


"If your father had beaten you"

ეცემა is the pluperfect (and acting as a pluperfect) of ს+ცემს beat s.o. (DAT).

Be sure to note how the indirect object is marked with თვის in the pluperfect.

arasodes ar unda gagveqida Xveni saHli soPelSi.
He would never have sold (??) our house in the village.


"He never should have sold"

viqideT ise ro(m) araPeri gagvigia es raioni Cudia Tu kargi.
we bought iwhat we could find at this area, bad or good (??)


Hmm, I think it's "We bought such (a home) where (რომ) we had (lit. have) heard nothing (about whether) this neighborhood is bad or good." The perfect გაგვიგია would be functioning as a pluperfect here. It seems to me like there's a missing conjunction, but Georgian often looks like that to me. It tastes better to me if I read it backwards ("that this neighborhood is bad or good, we had heard nothing.").

deda: sul erTia XemTvis, daiZangeba Tu ara.
- It's all your business that it will rust (??)


"It is all the same (lit. one) to me (whether) it will rust or not."

Seni velosipedi ki ara, Sen unda mimeqrdeni Heze da mTeli Game iK dametovebine!
You should place your bycicle at the trees and leave it the whole night (??).


"Don't talk to me about your bicycle, I should have leaned you again a tree and left you there the whole night!"

ACC says that the pluperfect after უნდა in a main clause has the meaning of a "past obligation," but I can't say I remembering seeing this before (well, other than these sentences). This sounds about right though. :p

The "[NP] კი არა" with the meaning "don't talk to me about [NP]" is apparently an idiom (Aronson page 420, paragraph 18).

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-24, 8:33

viqideT ise ro(m) araPeri gagvigia es raioni Cudia Tu kargi.
we bought iwhat we could find at this area, bad or good (??)


Hmm, I think it's "We bought such (a home) where (რომ) we had (lit. have) heard nothing (about whether) this neighborhood is bad or good." The perfect გაგვიგია would be functioning as a pluperfect here. It seems to me like there's a missing conjunction, but Georgian often looks like that to me. It tastes better to me if I read it backwards ("that this neighborhood is bad or good, we had heard nothing.").


Well, okay, it says ისე, so I guess it's more like "we bought (a home) in such a way that (რომ) we had heard nothing [...]"

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-28, 19:02

I've started lesson 17 at Hewitt's and some important words are left untranslated, just for a change.

1) vaime, dGes imdeni saKmea gasakeTebeli, ro(m) Tavis mosaPHani droC ki ara maK(vs)!
What is mosaPHani?

2) manKaniT unda cavide mis dasaHvedrad, da ar Semijlia sadme casvla am saHlis (d)aulageblad.
What are dasaHvedrad and daulageblad?

TanaC manKana mosaqvani mqavs garaZidan, sadaC cuHel daitoves muHruxis SesakeTeblad.
Just unsure about 'mosaqvani'.

მორჩა და გათავდა!
What does this mean?
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-28, 21:29

E}{pugnator wrote:1) vaime, dGes imdeni saKmea gasakeTebeli, ro(m) Tavis mosaPHani droC ki ara maK(vs)!
What is mosaPHani?


Future participle of მოჰფხანს scratch.

E}{pugnator wrote:2) manKaniT unda cavide mis dasaHvedrad, da ar Semijlia sadme casvla am saHlis (d)aulageblad.
What are dasaHvedrad and daulageblad?


დასახვედრად is to meet (future participle), but დაულაგებლად is more problematic; it's the adverbial of the negative participle დაულაგებელი unorganized, but none of my books mention anything about negative participles being able to occur in the adverbial case like the future participles do. Aronson has one sentence where this happens, but he doesn't say anything about it:

ბასკური ენის შეუსწავლელად ვერ გეტყვი, ქართული და ბასკური ერთმანეთს ენათესავება თუ არა.
"Without learning Basque I will not be able to tell you [whether] Georgian and Basque are related to each other or not."

Going from the example the construction seems to mean "without (positive) VERBing" (in your case, "without organizing/cleaning up the house).

E}{pugnator wrote:TanaC manKana mosaqvani mqavs garaZidan, sadaC cuHel daitoves muHruxis SesakeTeblad.
Just unsure about 'mosaqvani'.


"To bring." As always მანქანა is animate for some reason.

E}{pugnator wrote:მორჩა და გათავდა!
What does this mean?


Literally it means "finished and ended," but it's an idiom meaning "enough! Basta!"

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2012-08-30, 19:55

Today I came across:

წიგნთსაცავში ვარ წასასვლელი. I have to go to the library.

I always though about წიგნთსაცავში უნდა წავიდე. Any differences in usage?
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.


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