Learning Notes - Expugnator

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-02-13, 0:52

Thanks for joining in. The more the merrier.

Fear_a_Phléasc wrote:ტარო - EAR. -> I couldn't find anywhere saying this word means "ear". From other materials I have, ear = ყური


ტარო means spadix, as in an ear of corn. ყური is the anatomical term.

Looking for examples of ტარო on Google I came across this picture. I just thought it was funny. :lol:

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby Fear_a_Phléasc » 2014-02-13, 1:50

:lol: რა დიდი ტაროა!

Thanks for explaining that one. I figured there was something lost in translation, as I believe he said it came from a Russian text.

My Georgian is still extremely limited. I feel pretty equipped to understand most of the basic non-verbal grammar and can identify verbs in the present/future and sometimes in the aorist series, but beyond that, the verbs are pretty bewildering to me at this point. I have been trying to mostly build up my vocabulary a bit so I can actually have some tools in my toolbox, so to speak. At this point I estimate I know about 300-400 words. I had started on Aronson, got about 1/4 of the way through it, and then switched to Kurtsikidze's book which I am almost halfway finished with (which brings me almost to the section on verbs, which I read the intro to but haven't actually started that section), after which I will probably go back to Aronson and finish that. I would have more time for Georgian if I weren't also working hard to get to fluency in Irish and finding time to refresh myself in the thousands of Hungarian and German words I forgot over the years of neglect. I find the grammar and everything remains intact, but if you don't use the words, you lose them. But I'm encouraged that there is at least one person (you) that seems fairly qualified to answer questions. I'm hoping that when I'm done with this first book I'll be in a position to read most things with a dictionary and know how to look up the verbs that I don't know, but I don't know how far this book takes you exactly. We shall see.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2014-02-13, 12:38

Thank you for your support. I have been through a lot of texts myself and only now some trickier topics start to make sense, such as the perfect series.

This is the final lesson from Basic Georgian:

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1. არ მოგენატრე?*
2. შეთანხმდებიან. გაერთე!
3. გილოცავ! იმედი მაქვს, რომ ყველაფერი კარგი იქნებოდა.
4. ჩემი ბიძაშვილი ქართველი კაცს ცოლად გაჰყვა. ჩემი ბიძა მოხარულია.**
5. შეთანხმდებიან? უეჭველად. წარმატებებს გისურვებთ!
6. ნუ იქნები ამდენი მოწყენილი. ყველაფერი კარგი იქნება.
7. ეს მჯერა!  წარმატებებს გისურვებთ!


* I really don't know how to say "Don't you miss me?". What's the difference between მომენატრე
and მენატრება? I mean, in tense. Then 'You miss me" would be მოგენატრე?
** My cousin married a georgian man. (I'm not sure what is the past form).
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2014-02-13, 13:05

Now I'm cross-posting reviews from Basic Georgian, by Tamar Makharoblidze.
As a side-note, i was contacted yday through FB by a guy who gave Georgian classes here in Brazil and knows the author in person (that doesn't biased the review though :P ).

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This was an expensive purchase but I don't regret it. It has English typos but that's first edition after all. I consider it to be the most consistent textbook for starting Georgian. The way grammar is introduced is a compromise between a logical grammatical sequel and actual needs. For example, Aronson follows a logic that makes him call passive verbs second conjugation and introduce them early in his book in a long lesson, which is useless for beginners. Makharoblidze, on her turn, starts with the easiest topics but doesn't refrain from giving small hints on important topics. For example, you don't have to wait till the last quarter of the book to know how to say 'I have' or 'I like' just because they are IV conjugation. You learn them in a practical way in the first lessons and later on you get more in-depth explanation. Another pro of this book is that it covers all the necessary subjects without going too in-depth into irregularities and such. You get exactly what you need as a beginner and intermediate student. One can always deal with irregularities as one moves forward. This book represents a nice step into making Georgian teaching more didactical and less scholarly.


This one is in Portuguese but a quick copy-paste at GT will do the job:

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Então, acabei de acabar o livro da Makharoblidze. Por muito tempo fiquei na dúvida sobre comprar ou não, até porque a editora, a Lincom, enfia a faca mesmo. Acabei comprando e ele chegou na hora exata, pois eu já tinha passado por muitos livros e tinha apenas uma noção de pontos importantes como a série perfectiva. Diferente de Aronson ou de Kiziria, Makharoblidze não tem "medo" de entrar em tópicos da gramática importantes para o iniciante só porque eles teoricamente são mais avançados. Por exemplo, o livro da Kiziria é bem básico em gramática; Aronson vai na ordem das conjugações, então nas primeiras lições ele ensina tudo sobre os verbos passivos, que são coisas inúteis para um iniciante, e só na frente vai ensinar verbos indiretos como ter, gostar, amar que são muito mais úteis. Makharoblidze, por sua vez, começa pelos aspectos mais fáceis mas ao mesmo tempo vai dando amostras desses outros tópicos conforme a necessidade do falante. Ou seja, ela achou um meio termo entre ensinar a gramática numa sequência lógica e ensinar realmente as construções mais essenciais para o falante.

O livro tem alguns erros principalmente no inglês, mas este é o preço por usar a primeira edição. Acredito que são introduzidas muitas palavras por lição, e eu só consegui acompanhar porque já sabia quase todo o vocabulário e pude me concentrar mais nas frases e na gramática. Apanhei um pouco pela falta da correção dos exercícios. A sorte é que um conhecido em outro fórum corrigiu alguns. De qualquer forma, os exercícios são relevantes e me colocaram para traduzir em georgiano, e nesse meio tempo minha conversação melhorou bem. É isso.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-02-13, 17:10

I'm glad you found the book useful. It's getting very popular, it seems.

E}{pugnator wrote:1. არ მოგენატრე?*

* I really don't know how to say "Don't you miss me?". What's the difference between მომენატრე
and მენატრება? I mean, in tense. Then 'You miss me" would be მოგენატრე?


From the examples I've seen, it's like in English, i.e., you would use the past tense if you met some after a long time apart, მომენატრე, and the present if you were, e.g., writing a letter to someone, მენატრებ. This sounds like somebody talking on the telephone, so I'm guessing "არ გენატრები?"

E}{pugnator wrote:4. ჩემი ბიძაშვილი ქართველი კაცს ცოლად გაჰყვა. ჩემი ბიძა მოხარულია.**

** My cousin married a georgian man. (I'm not sure what is the past form).


This is correct, it's third person -ყვა, first and second person -ყევი (also it should be ქართველ, without the ი).

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby Fear_a_Phléasc » 2014-02-13, 21:34

I came across some sentences I am not sure I understand correctly in Kurtsikidze. She explains most things here pretty well, but no explanation is given of this use of როგორიც or why there is no ი in the second sentence. It seems the use roughly corresponds to ვიდრე.

ეს ფანქარი ისეთი კარქი არაა, როგორიც ის.
This pencil is not as good as that one?

ეს ბავშვები ისე კარგად არ კითხულობენ, როგორც თავისი ბავშვები.
These children don't read as well as his/her own children?

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-02-14, 16:51

Well, as much as "as" and "than" correspond in English, I suppose.

All the words starting with როგორ- have a ton of different uses, and I can't remember reading anything specifically about their differences. One pattern I've noticed though, is that where English has "(as) [adverb] as," Georgian has "[adverb] როგორც," and where English has "(as) [adjective] as," Georgian has "[adjective] როგორიც."

I just found some Facebook posts titled ცხოვრება ისეთია როგორიც არის life is as it is and იცხოვრე ისე როგორც გინდა live as you want, and your sentences seem to fit with that.

My Dunwoody dictionary offers ისეთი პატარა ქვეყანა, როგორიცაა გერმანია a small country such as Germany (is), and ექსპერტთა ერთი ნაწილი ამ პროცესს ახასიათებს, როგორც სპონტანურ პრივატიზაციას one group of experts defines this process as a spontaneous privatization. (presumably underlying "defines it so ... as").

All the dictionaries I've consulted have multiple definitions for these words though, including expressions like როგორც კი conj. as soon as.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby Fear_a_Phléasc » 2014-02-14, 17:17

Well, as much as "as" and "than" correspond in English, I suppose.


Seems quite a bit closer than that:

მდინარის წყალი უფრო ცივია, ვიდრე ზღვის.

Compare this with the examples given above and the only difference syntactically is the inclusion of უფრო. Granted, I recognize ვიდრე and როგორც are different words with slightly different functions, but at least in this particular usage, they're much closer than "as" and "than" in English.

Anyways, at this point I think I understand the difference. In the next chapter she explains it a little better anyways. Sometimes she introduces things in the book to challenge the reader, I think, and then gives them the explanation shortly after. Sometimes this is nice, sometimes it's a little more bothersome.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-02-14, 21:32

Fear_a_Phléasc wrote:Seems quite a bit closer than that:

მდინარის წყალი უფრო ცივია, ვიდრე ზღვის.

Compare this with the examples given above and the only difference syntactically is the inclusion of უფრო. Granted, I recognize ვიდრე and როგორც are different words with slightly different functions, but at least in this particular usage, they're much closer than "as" and "than" in English.


How so? უფრო is used to form comparatives, and ვიდრე is used with comparatives in the same way "than" is in English.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2014-02-18, 11:03

I posted this at the other forum and italki and forgot to post it here, where I get most of the advice:

- გამარჯობა!
- გამარჯობა! რას აკეთებ?
- ცოტა გერმანულს ვსწავლობ.
- ცხადია, რომ ენების სწავლა შენთვის სერიოზული ჰობია.
- სერიოზული არ არის, ასე რომ იყო, ჰობი არ იქნებოდა. მაგრამ ძალიან მომწონს და ამით ძალიან ხშირად საქმიანი ვარ.
- გავიგებ. სხვა ჰობი გაქვს?
- კი, სხვა ჰობი მაქვს. მაგალითად, სამეჯლისო ცეკვა მომწონს.
- სამეჯლისო ცეკვა?! ეს ნელი და მოსაწყენი ხომ არ არის?
- რას ამბობ, კაცო?! პირიკით, საინტერესო და გასართობია. სინამდვილეში, ბრაზილიურ საცეკვაო სტილს ვსწავლობ და ვარჯიშობ: სამბას და ფორროს. ორივე ჩქარი და დინამიკური ცეკვევაა.
- კარგად. დიდი მადლობა განმარტებებისთვის. ახლა უნდა წავიდე, შვიდზე ტანგოს გაკვეთილი მაქვს.
ნახვამდის!
- ნახვამდის!

- Hello!
- Hello!
- What are you doing ?
- I'm learning a little German .
- It is clear that language learning is a serious hobby for you .
- It Is not serious. If it were serious, then it wouldn't be a hobby. But I like it and
i'm often busy with it.
- I see. Do you have other hobbies ?
- Yes, I do. For example, I like ballroom dancing.
- Ballroom dancing?! Isn't it slow and boring?
- What are you saying, man ? On the contrary, it's interesting and fun. In fact, I
learn and practice Brazilian dance styles: samba and forro. Both are fast and dynamic
dances.
- Alright. Thanks a lot for the explanations. Now I have to go, I've got tango lessons
at seven. See you!
- See you!
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-02-19, 6:57

E}{pugnator wrote:ასე რომ იყო, ჰობი არ იქნებოდა.
If it were serious, then it wouldn't be a hobby.


It looks good. The only thing I wonder about is which screeves to use here. I found this in ACC (under Modal Constructions, p. 407):

შენ რომ ჩემს ადგილზე იყო, რას იზამ. If you were in my place, what would [lit., will] you do.'

Based on this I'm thinking it should be opt. იყოს instead of aor. იყო.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2014-02-19, 13:41

Here's how a native corrected it:

სამეჯლისო ცეკვა
- გამარჯობა!
- გამარჯობა! რას აკეთებ?
- ცოტა გერმანულს ვსწავლობ.
- ცხადია, რომ ენების სწავლა შენთვის სერიოზული ჰობია.
- სერიოზული არ არის, ასე რომ იყო, ჰობი არ იქნებოდა. მაგრამ ძალიან მომწონს და ამით ძალიან ხშირად ვარ დაკავებული.
- გასაგებია. სხვა ჰობი გაქვს?
- კი მაქვს. მაგალითად, მომწონს სამეჯლისო ცეკვა.
- სამეჯლისო ცეკვა?! ეს ნელი და მოსაწყენი არ არის?
- რას ამბობ, კაცო?! პირიქით, საინტერესო და გასართობია. სინამდვილეში, ბრაზილიურ საცეკვაო სტილის ვსწავლობ და ვარჯიშობ: სამბას და ფოჰოს. ორივე ჩქარი და დინამიკური ცეკვევაა.
- კარგი. დიდი მადლობა განმარტებებისთვის. ახლა უნდა წავიდე, შვიდზე ტანგოს გაკვეთილი მაქვს. შეხვედრამდე!
- შეხვედრამდე.

I really like the results. Only minor corrections :)
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-02-20, 1:16

Hmm, I guess you can use the aorist. Good job. :D

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby Fear_a_Phléasc » 2014-02-20, 23:04

HoneyBuzzard wrote:
Fear_a_Phléasc wrote:Seems quite a bit closer than that:

მდინარის წყალი უფრო ცივია, ვიდრე ზღვის.

Compare this with the examples given above and the only difference syntactically is the inclusion of უფრო. Granted, I recognize ვიდრე and როგორც are different words with slightly different functions, but at least in this particular usage, they're much closer than "as" and "than" in English.


How so? უფრო is used to form comparatives, and ვიდრე is used with comparatives in the same way "than" is in English.


I think I lost you. It's not an important enough point to belabor, but thinking in terms of English translations is problematic when learning any language.

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2014-04-16, 15:47

I've been watching TED Talks with subtitles in Portuguese and Georgian, and this has helped a lot. I've also been reading a book from Paulo Coelho in the original and its translation in Georgian. But the resource that has helped me the most is the Culture Talk project, which you can find here:

http://langmedia.fivecolleges.edu/culturetalk.html

The audio is not always good but it's the most consistent corpus of Georgian texts/dialogues with transcript and translation one can find.

I've also been reading Kurze Grammatil der Georgischen Sprache and will soon start Carmichael's Georgian Syntax. I want to finish those two books to be able to restrain my Georgian to the materials I mentioned above.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-04-17, 15:50

How are you liking the Kurze Grammatik? I would imagine it retreads a lot of content from the other books you've read.

Good luck with A. C. Harris's Georgian Syntax. I found it a very interesting read though a lot of it went over my head since I'm not a syntactician. :wink:

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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2014-04-18, 0:54

HoneyBuzzard wrote:How are you liking the Kurze Grammatik? I would imagine it retreads a lot of content from the other books you've read.


Actually, that's the point in doing it. I didn't retain much from my previous book, and being a shorter book, I believe Kurze Grammatik will leave me with as least the essential, and I can get into details when I get more into literature.

Good luck with A. C. Harris's Georgian Syntax. I found it a very interesting read though a lot of it went over my head since I'm not a syntactician. :wink:

Having a narrower knowledge, I guess it will be way over my head, but that's the moment I have for doing it, it's actually the one book that is missing (if I consider I'm doing only Kurze Grammatik and not the other improved book from Fähnrich).
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2014-05-02, 17:19

I'm reading Kurze Grammatik der georgischen Sprache and Fähnricher states that the pluperfect has the same "non-witnessed past" implication as the perfect. Is it really so? If this is the case, then we don't have a "pure" anterior/remote past like we have the aorist for simple past.
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2014-05-03, 5:24

That's what it looks like.

"By analogy to the present perfect/first resultative, [past perfect forms] first expressed the past result of an action which took place in the remote past and later changed into second resultative forms in Modern Georgian.

OG მე იგი დამეწერა 'I had written Y,'
MG მე ის დამეწერა 'I had (apparently) written Y.'
"
(The Georgian Verb: A Morphosyntactic Analysis §(5.)3.2)

Of course in Modern Georgian it doesn't even do that most of the time since it has taken over the functions of the conjunctive perfect and thus works as a past conjunctive, e.g., მე ენაზე ვიკბინე, რომ არ გამცინებოდა I bit my tongue so that I not laugh involuntarily.

The only examples I can find where it doesn't work as a conjunctive, it does indeed appear to express evidentiality, e.g., იდაყვებით მოაჯირს დაყრდნობოდა she had leaned against the banister with her elbow(s) (first person narrator). I tried finding examples where it was neither resultative nor conjunctive, but I couldn't find any. Not that I have any reason to doubt my books, but it never hurts to look. ;)

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E}{pugnator
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Re: Learning Notes - Expugnator

Postby E}{pugnator » 2014-05-06, 16:57

Ah I see, that's what I found too. I think the conjunctive usage was more evident and so I overlooked the evidential part.
Learning Georgian, Mandarin Chinese, Russian and Papiamentu from scratch. Trying to brush up my Norwegian up to an advanced level.


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