expressions

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cookietooting
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expressions

Postby cookietooting » 2009-06-09, 12:03

just wondering if these are 'see you later' / 'goodbye' expressions?

momcere

sheni monacemebic

ra chamonatvalic gtxove

Still learning!

:)

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ninkaakanino
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Re: expressions

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-06-10, 15:12

cookietooting wrote:just wondering if these are 'see you later' / 'goodbye' expressions?

momcere

sheni monacemebic

ra chamonatvalic gtxove

Still learning!

:)


gamarjoba cookietooting,

of course there are:

goodbye - nakhvamdis - ნახვამდის

bye- paka, kargad (iyavi or iyavit/brdzandebodet) - პაკა, კარგად (იყავი ან იყავით/ბრძანდებოდეთ)

see you later - droebit, momaval shekhvedramde - დროებით, მომავალ შეხვედრამდე
If you really want something in life you have to work for it. Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers. (H.S.)

cookietooting
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Re: expressions

Postby cookietooting » 2009-06-10, 18:51

Hello and thank-you! :)

I thought the below sentences might be expressions of goodbye too? I am picking things up from listening to some friends!!

Can you translate these for me please..

1) momcere

2) sheni monacemebic

3) ra chamonatvalic gtxove

gamadlob!

Cookietooting

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ninkaakanino
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Re: expressions

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-06-10, 22:02

cookietooting wrote:1) momcere


write to me

cookietooting wrote:2) sheni monacemebic


your data (too)

cookietooting wrote:3) ra chamonatvalic gtxove


the list of what i have asked you
If you really want something in life you have to work for it. Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers. (H.S.)

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: expressions

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2009-06-11, 22:49

ninkaakanino wrote:
cookietooting wrote:1) momcere


write to me


Now that we're on the subject, this is something I've been wondering about actually. I'm currently rereading chapter 7 in Aronson's Georgian - A Reading Grammar exactly because I don't understand how direct object markers and indirect object markers are supposed to coexist. He says on page 169 that [...] in general, indirect objects denote human beings (and therefore can be first, second, and third persons) while direct objects tend to denote things (and therefore are most commonly third person only), but he never explains what happens when one object is first person and the other is second person.

For example, how would you say he sent you to me?

გამომიგგზავნა
(გამომი to me - გ you - გზავნა he sent)

This one is scary. I have no intuition on Georgian (yet :P ), but this one can't be right.

შენ გამომიგზავნა
(შენ NOM) (გამომი to me - him - გზავნა he sent)

I quite like this one, but isn't the verb indicating a third person direct object?

მე გაგგზავნა
(მე DAT) (გა pvb. - გ you - გზავნა he sent)

I like this one too. მე sounds nominative to me, but I know it doesn't inflect, so მე must be the dative form too. I did a google search (even though I know you don't trust those :wink: ), and it does seem like these sorts of verbal forms exist. One hit gave me ვინ გაგგზავნა which I'm pretty sure is who sent you?

How would a Georgian speaker say he sent you to me (or he wrote you to me, but that sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? :) )?

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ninkaakanino
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Re: expressions

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-06-14, 10:28

i will try to answer your post, but don't expect me to explain all the rules there are to it (if any), so i will just correct some of your hypothetical translations/inventions

HoneyBuzzard wrote:For example, how would you say he sent you to me?


he sent you to me would be - მან შენ გამოგაგზავნა ჩემთან, გამოგაგზავნა.
in the verb you get only second person direct object marker (g) and as for indirect object (to me), there is no marking in the verb. გამო - preposition would somehow indicate the direction towards the speaker (to me). and really why not use some pronouns and prepositions, a verb cannot include all the markings (although georgian verb does have lots of stuff in it).

HoneyBuzzard wrote:გამომიგგზავნა
(გამომი to me - გ you - გზავნა he sent)


sorry but that is wrong. i guess it is almost impossible to generate your own verb forms by applying those rules. i would rather suggest deciphering existing and correct examples and learning them by heart. georgian language is not very flexible in that terms. also, i think you should pay more attention to prepositions, there are lots of them and with complex functions.

HoneyBuzzard wrote:This one is scary. I have no intuition on Georgian (yet :P ), but this one can't be right.

შენ გამომიგზავნა
(შენ NOM) (გამომი to me - him - გზავნა he sent)

I quite like this one, but isn't the verb indicating a third person direct object?


go on working on your intuition. you are doing a nice job already :)
გამომიგზავნა is right, it means - he sent (unspecified direct object - sth/sb) to me. if you want to make it clear that the direct object was "you" i.e. yourself, you could say

მან შენი თავი მე გამომიგზავნა

HoneyBuzzard wrote:მე გაგგზავნა
(მე DAT) (გა pvb. - გ you - გზავნა he sent)

I like this one too. მე sounds nominative to me, but I know it doesn't inflect, so მე must be the dative form too. I did a google search (even though I know you don't trust those :wink: ), and it does seem like these sorts of verbal forms exist. One hit gave me ვინ გაგგზავნა which I'm pretty sure is who sent you?


as mentioned above, the preposition გამო- denotes the direction of sending - towards me, the speaker, thus გაგგზავნა would have different meaning, implying that sb sent you somewhere and it cannot be to me, towards my direction, but somewhere away.

as in that verb we get two გგ-s, usually a vowel ა is inserted to make the pronunciation easier - გაგაგზავნა

And also, it is highly important to pay attention to objects/subject of a verb in order to understand the verb structure correctly. ზმნის პირები in georgian. e.g. some verbs are - ერთპირიანი, ორპირიანი, სამპირიანი, and whenever you pick up a cunjugated verb, write next to it all its complements in correct declinations, e.g. მიყვარხარ მე შენ (i love you), წავიკითხე მე ის (i read it), გამარტყა მან მე (he hit me), ა.შ.
If you really want something in life you have to work for it. Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers. (H.S.)

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: expressions

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2009-06-14, 16:00

ninkaakanino wrote:he sent you to me would be - მან შენ გამოგაგზავნა ჩემთან, გამოგაგზავნა.

and really why not use some pronouns and prepositions, a verb cannot include all the markings (although georgian verb does have lots of stuff in it).


But that's just it! It seems that sometimes the verb can mark all the arguments, and sometimes it can't. გამომიგზავნა indicates both the subject (3rd pers.), the indirect object (1st pers.) and the direct object (3rd pers.), and it seems to me that if you can say he sent it to me with a single conjugation, you should also be able to say he sent you to me with a single conjugation.

Not that there's anything wrong with pronouns, of course, but Georgian is interesting to me exactly because it has all this stuff like polypersonal agreement, and it seems strange to me that Georgian, or any language with such a complex verbal system, would have to rely on pronouns for something like this. Can you just say გამოგ(ა)გზავნა, or would it sound strange without the pronouns? I suppose it would be easy to mistake it for გამოგგზავნა if you didn't use the pronouns.

And you mean postpositions, right? Like the -თან in ჩემთან.

ninkaakanino wrote:i guess it is almost impossible to generate your own verb forms by applying those rules. i would rather suggest deciphering existing and correct examples and learning them by heart.


No, no, I wasn't actually suggesting that that was how one would say it. *გამომიგგზავნა (or *გამოგმიგზავნა) is just what you would get if you put two object markers on the same verb (indirect მ(ი) and direct გ in this case) - and that obviously isn't allowed. It's definitely possible to generate valid forms by applying the rules; otherwise it wouldn't make sense even to formalize them (I just didn't follow the rules here). Georgian is complex, not random :wink:

ninkaakanino wrote:if you want to make it clear that the direct object was "you" i.e. yourself, you could say

მან შენი თავი მე გამომიგზავნა


:D Of course. თავი is 3rd person, so it can be marked even when there's already an indirect object marked on the verb. I thought თავი was only used for reflexives, but I see how this would work. Compared to ჩემთან გამოგ(ა)გზავნა, would შენი თავი გამომიგზავნა put the focus on the you?

ninkaakanino wrote:as in that verb we get two გგ-s, usually a vowel ა is inserted to make the pronunciation easier - გაგაგზავნა


I've never heard of this before. Is this a new thing, or is it just to avoid having two გs next to each other?

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Re: expressions

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-06-20, 22:51

HoneyBuzzard wrote:Can you just say გამოგ(ა)გზავნა, or would it sound strange without the pronouns? I suppose it would be easy to mistake it for გამოგგზავნა if you didn't use the pronouns.

yes you can say that. and for natives usually that confusion hardly ever occurs.

HoneyBuzzard wrote:And you mean postpositions, right? Like the -თან in ჩემთან.


yep, they are, in the case of georgian - suffixes and bound morphemes, but semantically their meaning corresponds to e.g. english prepositions.

HoneyBuzzard wrote:
ninkaakanino wrote:as in that verb we get two გგ-s, usually a vowel ა is inserted to make the pronunciation easier - გაგაგზავნა


I've never heard of this before. Is this a new thing, or is it just to avoid having two გs next to each other?
[/quote]

just to avoid two "gg"s.
If you really want something in life you have to work for it. Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers. (H.S.)

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: expressions

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2009-06-21, 7:16

Okay, cool. Thanks for helping me out :waytogo:

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ninkaakanino
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Re: expressions

Postby ninkaakanino » 2009-06-21, 9:00

HoneyBuzzard wrote:Okay, cool. Thanks for helping me out :waytogo:


you're welcome :doggy:
If you really want something in life you have to work for it. Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers. (H.S.)


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