Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Amatio
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Amatio » 2009-12-01, 0:05

Hello.

Firstly. Where to search for Georgian alphabet?
Perfect : [flag]lv[/flag], [flag]us[/flag], Image
Basis : [flag]ru[/flag], [flag]es[/flag]
Interested : [flag]prg[/flag], [flag]et[/flag]
Consider : [flag]lt[/flag], [flag]ka[/flag], [flag]fr[/flag], [flag]de[/flag]


HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2010-01-07, 20:32

How do you distinguish non-third person direct objects in the second perfect of the class I verbs that take the -ინ- infix? That is to say, გაემზადებინა is "he had prepared it", so how do you say "he had prepared me"? My guess is გავემზადებინე, but I'm not sure.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2010-01-17, 1:16

In case the tumbleweed wants to know, I found this in the exercises for the chapter:

პეტრესათვის რომ უფრო კარგად გაგეხასიათებინე, ფულს დროზე მომცემდა.
If you had described [characterized] me better to Peter, he would have given me the money on time.


So yes, it is with -ინე as I had guessed. :lol:

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ninkaakanino
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby ninkaakanino » 2010-03-11, 22:28

HoneyBuzzard wrote:In case the tumbleweed wants to know, I found this in the exercises for the chapter:

პეტრესათვის რომ უფრო კარგად გაგეხასიათებინე, ფულს დროზე მომცემდა.
If you had described [characterized] me better to Peter, he would have given me the money on time.


So yes, it is with -ინე as I had guessed. :lol:



გაგეხასიათებინე should be rather - დაგეხასიათებინე. :) just a typo, maybe.
If you really want something in life you have to work for it. Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers. (H.S.)

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2010-03-12, 22:21

Oops, you're right! The book does say დაგეხასიათებინე. I must have made a typo :)

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby モモンガ » 2012-08-30, 21:01

Beginner Question: Why is Georgian said to be one of world's hardest languages?
Is it because its verb conjugation is very irregular, or something different?
[flag]tr[/flag]Türkçe [flag]vi[/flag]㗂越[flag]lo[/flag]ພາສາລາວ[flag]tet[/flag]Prasa Tetun

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-08-30, 23:19

I don't think it really is though, it just has some features, like polypersonalism and inversion, that make it stick out from other languages in Europe and Asia, and in the old days you couldn't just Wiki something if you weren't familiar with the concept.

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モモンガ
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby モモンガ » 2012-09-02, 17:29

hmm, I see thanks for the answer.
I hopet study it a little soon, but it looks a little scary.
[flag]tr[/flag]Türkçe [flag]vi[/flag]㗂越[flag]lo[/flag]ພາສາລາວ[flag]tet[/flag]Prasa Tetun

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby asgarnian123 » 2012-10-20, 19:49

I'm trying to translate a Georgian song, but there are some words in particular that I'm having trouble with. Three lines in a row end with words ending in -მან:

შენზე ფიქრმა და სევდიმან.
შორს წასვლამ, ხშირად გაყრამან
გულის თვალებით ხედვამან

Without -მან, these look like verbs, but I've no idea what that suffix could mean.


Also, I have a question about the clitic copula -(ა)ა. Is the rule to use -ა after vowels and -აა after consonants, or can one also just use -ა after consonants?
Native: [flag=]fr[/flag] [flag=]en-US[/flag] Decent: [flag=]no-nb[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginner: [flag=]no-nn[/flag] [flag=]fo[/flag] [flag=]sv[/flag]
Überneuling: [flag=]cy[/flag] [flag=]it[/flag] [flag=]pt-PT[/flag] [flag=]da[/flag] [flag=]nl[/flag] [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]is[/flag]
Dabbling: [flag=]ja[/flag] [flag=]fi[/flag] [flag=]ar-arb[/flag] [flag=]ka[/flag] [flag=]ca[/flag] [flag=]ga[/flag] [flag=]es-ES[/flag] [flag=]pl[/flag] [flag=]gd[/flag] [flag=]yi[/flag] [flag=]non[/flag]
Future (?): [flag=]ru[/flag] [flag=]sk[/flag] [flag=]sq[/flag] [flag=]ar-EG[/flag] [flag=]el[/flag] [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]kk[/flag] [flag=]kl[/flag] [flag=]mk[/flag] [flag=]zu[/flag] [flag=]art-sjn[/flag] [flag=]mi[/flag] [flag=]en_old[/flag] [flag=]mt[/flag] [flag=]os[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]sw[/flag] [flag=]tr[/flag] [flag=]uk[/flag] [flag=]vi[/flag] [flag=]ur[/flag] [flag=]kw[/flag] [flag=]zh.Hans[/flag] [flag=]cs[/flag] [flag=]ain[/flag] [flag=]nv[/flag] [flag=]eo[/flag] [flag=]eu[/flag] [flag=]fa[/flag] [flag=]ko[/flag] [flag=]haw[/flag] [flag=]lv[/flag] [flag=]hu[/flag] [flag=]nah[/flag] [flag=]ro[/flag] [flag=]wuu.Hans[/flag] [flag=]art-qya[/flag] [flag=]sa[/flag] [flag=]lt[/flag] [flag=]yua[/flag] [flag=]cop[/flag] [flag=]smi-sme[/flag] [flag=]et[/flag] [flag=]gv[/flag] [flag=]br[/flag] [flag=]frr[/flag] [flag=]fy[/flag] [flag=]nds[/flag]

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2012-10-21, 0:42

asgarnian123 wrote:I'm trying to translate a Georgian song, but there are some words in particular that I'm having trouble with. Three lines in a row end with words ending in -მან:

შენზე ფიქრმა და სევდიმან.
შორს წასვლამ, ხშირად გაყრამან
გულის თვალებით ხედვამან

Without -მან, these look like verbs, but I've no idea what that suffix could mean.


The last two are nominal forms actually, so the -მან is probably the archaic ergative suffix (truncated in modern Georgian to -მა). It's still used sometimes today for poetic effect (or maybe it's just an old song). Without the rest of the lyrics it's hard to say what the missing verb might be.

I'm not sure about the სევდიმან though. Since the -ი- is retained, it's probably a proper name.

asgarnian123 wrote:Also, I have a question about the clitic copula -(ა)ა. Is the rule to use -ა after vowels and -აა after consonants, or can one also just use -ა after consonants?


No, afaik it has to be -აა. I'm pretty sure the first ა is the same epenthetic vowel that often shows up, e.g., in front of monosyllabic verbs, so it makes sense if you think of the final ა as an independent verb.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby asgarnian123 » 2012-10-21, 14:37

Thanks for the help! :) That's probably one of the most difficult things about translating songs, all the archaic forms.

HoneyBuzzard wrote:Without the rest of the lyrics it's hard to say what the missing verb might be.


I guess the verb for all of these must be the one in the first line. Here are the four of the stanza:

შენმა სურვილმა დამლია,
შენზე ფიქრმა და სევდამან.
შორს წასვლამ, ხშირად გაყრამან
გულის თვალებით ხედვამან

HoneyBuzzard wrote:I'm not sure about the სევდიმან though. Since the -ი- is retained, it's probably a proper name.


Actually, I made a typo, it's supposed to be სევდამან, which is also a nominal.

გმადლობთ!
Native: [flag=]fr[/flag] [flag=]en-US[/flag] Decent: [flag=]no-nb[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginner: [flag=]no-nn[/flag] [flag=]fo[/flag] [flag=]sv[/flag]
Überneuling: [flag=]cy[/flag] [flag=]it[/flag] [flag=]pt-PT[/flag] [flag=]da[/flag] [flag=]nl[/flag] [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]is[/flag]
Dabbling: [flag=]ja[/flag] [flag=]fi[/flag] [flag=]ar-arb[/flag] [flag=]ka[/flag] [flag=]ca[/flag] [flag=]ga[/flag] [flag=]es-ES[/flag] [flag=]pl[/flag] [flag=]gd[/flag] [flag=]yi[/flag] [flag=]non[/flag]
Future (?): [flag=]ru[/flag] [flag=]sk[/flag] [flag=]sq[/flag] [flag=]ar-EG[/flag] [flag=]el[/flag] [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]kk[/flag] [flag=]kl[/flag] [flag=]mk[/flag] [flag=]zu[/flag] [flag=]art-sjn[/flag] [flag=]mi[/flag] [flag=]en_old[/flag] [flag=]mt[/flag] [flag=]os[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]sw[/flag] [flag=]tr[/flag] [flag=]uk[/flag] [flag=]vi[/flag] [flag=]ur[/flag] [flag=]kw[/flag] [flag=]zh.Hans[/flag] [flag=]cs[/flag] [flag=]ain[/flag] [flag=]nv[/flag] [flag=]eo[/flag] [flag=]eu[/flag] [flag=]fa[/flag] [flag=]ko[/flag] [flag=]haw[/flag] [flag=]lv[/flag] [flag=]hu[/flag] [flag=]nah[/flag] [flag=]ro[/flag] [flag=]wuu.Hans[/flag] [flag=]art-qya[/flag] [flag=]sa[/flag] [flag=]lt[/flag] [flag=]yua[/flag] [flag=]cop[/flag] [flag=]smi-sme[/flag] [flag=]et[/flag] [flag=]gv[/flag] [flag=]br[/flag] [flag=]frr[/flag] [flag=]fy[/flag] [flag=]nds[/flag]

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mini99
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby mini99 » 2013-09-11, 12:29

This thread looks dead, but let's someone can help me:)

I've only just started learning Georgian.
What is the difference between "მას ჰქვია" and "ის ჰქვია"?
I've learnt the first sentence as "his name is" from a book, but I've seen the second one on various sites on the internet.
I understand ის translates as he/she/it . So what's up with this? Does Georgian have gender specific pronouns as well?

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2013-09-11, 21:49

The მას is the name, the ის is the one who has the name. ის ჰქვია "(he) is called that name," მას ჰქვია "he is called (that name)." The pronouns are actually demonstratives, ეს is "this one," ის is "that one" (ეგ is unspecified and mostly colloquial) and do not have gender, so the "he/she/it" is just an artifact of translation.

It's nice to see some traffic in this thread for once. It's quiet in here. :)

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mini99
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby mini99 » 2013-09-12, 8:57

Thanks for your reply, nice to see someone here:)

HoneyBuzzard wrote:The pronouns are actually demonstratives, ეს is "this one," ის is "that one" (ეგ is unspecified and mostly colloquial) and do not have gender, so the "he/she/it" is just an artifact of translation.

Ok, I'll keep that in my mind.

HoneyBuzzard wrote:The მას is the name, the ის is the one who has the name. ის ჰქვია "(he) is called that name," მას ჰქვია "he is called (that name)."

Sorry, I still don't get it.
These are the examples from my book:

მე მქვია ელენე
შენ გქვია ნოდარი
მას ჰქვია გიორგი
ჩვენ გვქვია დათო და ანა
თქვენ გქვიათ თინა და გელა
მათ ჰქვიათ გოგი და გია

I'm confused by the მას / მათ in the third person. All the other pronouns I recognize.
I was taught it would be ის / ისინი- Am I confusing personal pronouns with demonstrative?

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2013-09-12, 23:06

Are you sure you understand how the cases work? ჰქვია is a class four verb, so its subject is in the dative. The first and second person pronouns do not decline*, so მე could be nominative (like ის), dative (like მას), etc.

*The genitive is actually an adjective (ჩემი my, მისი his, მათი their, etc.).

ის declines in all forms of the singular (ის, მან, მას, etc.), but it only has two forms in the plural: ისინი in the nominative and მათ in all other forms (including the dative). When used pronominally ის often loses its initial ი- outside the nominative and adverbial, so მას is actually იმას "that one" (dative).





Nominativeმეშენისისინი
Ergativeმეშენ(ი)მან(ი)მათ
Dativeმეშენ(ი)მას(ი)მათ
Genitive****
Instrumental **(ი)მით-
Adverbial**იმად-


Forms with postpositions as well as the adverbial and instrumental of the first and second person pronouns are based the adjectives (ჩემით by me, ჩემზე on me, მათზე on them, etc.). ის never occurs in the instrumental and adverbial plural (and pronouns don't have vocatives EDIT: Except for second person pronouns).

I hope it's not too dry. :hmm:
Last edited by HoneyBuzzard on 2013-09-19, 5:43, edited 1 time in total.

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mini99
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby mini99 » 2013-09-13, 6:43

Huge thanks for your detailed (and not too dry) reply. :D I get it now.

HoneyBuzzard wrote:Are you sure you understand how the cases work?

I'm sure I don't. I only started learning Georgian last week, so far I've only looked at nominative and vocative.

I'll get into verb conjugations more in detail later, but for now just knowing the reason the third person form looks the way it does is enough.

Georgian is a very interesting language so far, I must say.

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2013-09-13, 17:22

I'm glad I could help. I'm surprised your book is already talking about verbs like ჰქვია, class four verbs are usually saved for later sections because they have features like dative subjects. Good luck :)

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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby Fear_a_Phléasc » 2013-12-14, 3:23

In Aronson's book, in the Exercises for Lesson 4, the first example is:

1. კარგი იქნებოდა, რომ ვკითხულობდეთ წიგნებს ქართული ცხოვრების შესახებ.

In the text earlier on where he describe this construction he says that it uses the conjunctive. Likewise, he says that the conjunctive (at least the "perfect") is formed from the future series of the verb. Why then, is it not ვიკითხავდეთ instead of ვკითხულობდეთ? He translates it as "It would be good if we read books about Georgian life". Only if the meaning of "we read" in this instance meant in the past tense (as in "it would be good if we had read books about Georgian life") would I expect the imperfect in this instance, but maybe I don't understand the difference between the imperfect and the conditional. The sentence reads to me as though it's not imperfect, as in "It would be good if we read books (in the future)". At times in this book it sounds as though one is for things that happen in the past and the other things that could happen, and at others he states that the difference is a matter of whether the action has been completed or not.
Last edited by Fear_a_Phléasc on 2013-12-14, 20:47, edited 1 time in total.

HoneyBuzzard
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Re: Your Questions about Georgian Grammar

Postby HoneyBuzzard » 2013-12-14, 16:04

Are you sure you've understood §4.1.2? The poorly named conditional screeve is used for the apodosis ("then" clause) and not the protasis ("if" clause). The conditional here, indicating the result, is იქნებოდა, and the conjunctive present, indicating the condition, is ვკითხულობდეთ.

You'd expect the conditional to be used for, well, the condition, but I guess that wasn't confusing enough :lol:


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